Sifan Hassan = GOAT! 3:51.95 FROM THE FRONT!!

Armstronglivs wrote:

LM wrote:

You're still dodging my first point. Just throwing that out there. Yet to hear a satisfactory answer on how to handle that.

As for this response I did not miss the point. You just acted as if being female is somehow discrete and their are are only a few categories with defined testosterone ranges. Also many hormones besides testosterone matter. They all exist on an a analog continuum. You can have all kinds of genetic variation within an XX human yielding varying levels of testosterone. Variation leading above 2 are certainly possible due to genetic and epigenetic factors. Many other hormones can also vary as can body structures and of course talent (VO2/efficiency/fractional utilization).

All of this means we can have a wide variation. Given the decent number of women that have run near 14:11 it's unlikely they were all 1 in a billion outliers at the absolute tip of everything being maxed out.

Same for guys. We know guys like Bekele or Kipchoge or Froome from cycling are no other near optimal humans. They don't have 85-90 VO2 combined with 25% GME combined with a fractional utilization approaching 90%. An athlete like that is 10% or more beyond the best we've seen from even king dopers like Lance.

So, again, I ask....how do you know Hassan isn't that level of talent? How do you know Kipchoge isn't that level of talent? How do you know Bekele isn't that level of talent?

Yes, of course the odds are much, much greater that these are all doped.

The problem I have is that even the most insane doped performances are still well within the level of what's achievable using top human physiological values.

What happens when that person comes along with that talent and blows everyone way by 20s in the 5000?

You are confused. XX females cannot have anything like the testosterone levels of a male. This is not a continuum - there is no overlap between XX and XY when it comes to T-levels; male levels are 15 times those of XX females.

Hassan is not androgenic; if she has high testosterone that's courtesy of Alberto but if it's above 5nml she'd certainly fail the biopassport.

I'm not aware of any other point you have made. Whatever it might have been, it wasn't relevant to this discussion.

LM wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

You are confused. XX females cannot have anything like the testosterone levels of a male. This is not a continuum - there is no overlap between XX and XY when it comes to T-levels; male levels are 15 times those of XX females.

Hassan is not androgenic; if she has high testosterone that's courtesy of Alberto but if it's above 5nml she'd certainly fail the biopassport.

I'm not aware of any other point you have made. Whatever it might have been, it wasn't relevant to this discussion.

Nobody claimed the bolded. Why even mention it?

The rest is obviously relevant to the discussion. Your claim is that Hassan IS doping (and implicitly, everyone excited is delusional or at least willfully ignorant for not agreeing). That's a very different claim from mine, which is that it's quite likely that Hassan is doping.

Your assertion that Hassan is doping is quite an extraordinary claim, especially for someone producing performances that are believable from the parameters we have of athletes. And, it goes much further than that because you've been constantly mocking performances of other athletes, and those excited about those performances.

The extent of your claim is, "they ran fast, and therefore are certainly doping". If you said likely doping, and acknowledged it as "I'm suspicious" I would take no issue. History and odds suggest that is without a doubt the case.

But the jump to certainty, and your self righteousness in your certainty is the issue. You have no absolutely no way to claim, with certainty that any performance is likely doped, and no evidence to argue there is an unreasonable probability any one of those performances is clean (actually, maybe such an argument can be made from the sprinters, I don't know power outputs, wind resistances, and efficiencies and what's "believable). It's clear you crucify athletes for being fast. If a clean guy came along and ran 12:30 to win the 5000m by 30s you would surely claim he was doping as well.

Make the case that Hassan, or any other athlete is certainly (not probably, as we all agree there) doping and I'll be interested.

LM wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

You are confused. XX females cannot have anything like the testosterone levels of a male. This is not a continuum - there is no overlap between XX and XY when it comes to T-levels; male levels are 15 times those of XX females.

Hassan is not androgenic; if she has high testosterone that's courtesy of Alberto but if it's above 5nml she'd certainly fail the biopassport.

I'm not aware of any other point you have made. Whatever it might have been, it wasn't relevant to this discussion.

Nobody claimed the bolded. Why even mention it?

The rest is obviously relevant to the discussion. Your claim is that Hassan IS doping (and implicitly, everyone excited is delusional or at least willfully ignorant for not agreeing). That's a very different claim from mine, which is that it's quite likely that Hassan is doping.

Your assertion that Hassan is doping is quite an extraordinary claim, especially for someone producing performances that are believable from the parameters we have of athletes. And, it goes much further than that because you've been constantly mocking performances of other athletes, and those excited about those performances.

The extent of your claim is, "they ran fast, and therefore are certainly doping". If you said likely doping, and acknowledged it as "I'm suspicious" I would take no issue. History and odds suggest that is without a doubt the case.

But the jump to certainty, and your self righteousness in your certainty is the issue. You have no absolutely no way to claim, with certainty that any performance is likely doped, and no evidence to argue there is an unreasonable probability any one of those performances is clean (actually, maybe such an argument can be made from the sprinters, I don't know power outputs, wind resistances, and efficiencies and what's "believable). It's clear you crucify athletes for being fast. If a clean guy came along and ran 12:30 to win the 5000m by 30s you would surely claim he was doping as well.

Make the case that Hassan, or any other athlete is certainly (not probably, as we all agree there) doping and I'll be interested.

Armstronglivs wrote:

LM wrote:

Nobody claimed the bolded. Why even mention it?

The rest is obviously relevant to the discussion. Your claim is that Hassan IS doping (and implicitly, everyone excited is delusional or at least willfully ignorant for not agreeing). That's a very different claim from mine, which is that it's quite likely that Hassan is doping.

Your assertion that Hassan is doping is quite an extraordinary claim, especially for someone producing performances that are believable from the parameters we have of athletes. And, it goes much further than that because you've been constantly mocking performances of other athletes, and those excited about those performances.

The extent of your claim is, "they ran fast, and therefore are certainly doping". If you said likely doping, and acknowledged it as "I'm suspicious" I would take no issue. History and odds suggest that is without a doubt the case.

But the jump to certainty, and your self righteousness in your certainty is the issue. You have no absolutely no way to claim, with certainty that any performance is likely doped, and no evidence to argue there is an unreasonable probability any one of those performances is clean (actually, maybe such an argument can be made from the sprinters, I don't know power outputs, wind resistances, and efficiencies and what's "believable). It's clear you crucify athletes for being fast. If a clean guy came along and ran 12:30 to win the 5000m by 30s you would surely claim he was doping as well.

Make the case that Hassan, or any other athlete is certainly (not probably, as we all agree there) doping and I'll be interested.

The claim was made earlier that some women can have a hormonal makeup close to that of males, which can explain outlier performances. I pointed out that there isn't a hormonal continuum between male and females - there is a gulf.

The argument that Hassan is likely doping - which I am far from being alone in suggesting - is based on much more than her simply running fast. Hence not every fast runner has raised that question, as her performances have.

However a certain level of performance will be questionable and can be an indicator of doping. Do you accept Flojo's records as genuine, or those of Kratochvilova and Marita Koch? And, yes - I would have difficulty buying a genuine 12.30 5k.