Where is the Kara info and the centro stuff. Most of it seems to be just dathan...
Where is the Kara info and the centro stuff. Most of it seems to be just dathan...
sbeefyk2 wrote:
Newsflash: Just because someone doesn't test positive, doesn't mean they are clean.
It's ironic, Americans on Letsrun bash Kenya and Ethiopia for being doping havens and then right here in America an actual doping haven was uncovered. You'd have to be the most naive person in the world to think he was testing PEDs on his kids and not using them on his athletes.
By your logic, golf has a bigger doping problem than the NFL because golf actually tests it’s athletes.
(Lest one throw out the canard, yes, some golfers use Anabolics and Androgenics. A certain US Male golfer who has won the US Open more than once, and another male golfer who is one of the greatest of all time....both Nike athletes, huh...).
Salazar was a problem, for sure. Kenya and Ethiopia (and of course US and Jamaican sprinting) make Salazar look like nothing. And everybody knows it. Most of us simply choose not to say it.
Ritzenhein has been one of the greatest success stories for the Nike Oregon Project. After joining the Nike Oregon Project in 2009, Ritzenhein broke the American Record in the 5,000m with a time of 12:56.27, won a bronze medal at the 2009 World Half Marathon Championships with a time of 60:00 (2nd fastest American, All-Time), won the 2010 USA Cross Country Championships, qualified for the 2012 United States Olympic team at 10,000m, and ran a personal best in the marathon of 2:07:47 at the 2012 Chicago Marathon (3rd fastest American, All-Time).
There are much bigger fish to fry than Dathan. He was truthful with the investigators -- showed where he likely received excess L-carnitine and improper prescription drugs. I'm not going to persecute this guy for being honest about it right away and then separating himself from NOP. He takes some accountability for his time there. I'm far more concerned with the rest of them who are still drinking the Kool-Aid and taking no accountability for their own athletic career, as if their coaches and doctors do it all and they get to turn a blind eye.
It's important to note that L-carnitine itself is not illegal. It depends on how you take it and how much. People at NOP probably used it legally and may still use it quite legally. You can drink it and if you do so regularly it may stay with you for some effective use, but still nowhere near as much as having it pumped straight into your body to saturate your system.
That's the whole thing about what Salazar and Dr. Brown were doing that makes it egregious. They knew what was legal and what was not legal, so they take something like L-carnitine that's not illegal to have in your system and then just fudge any evidence that would show you received it improperly or too much of it.
Shoebacca wrote:
There are much bigger fish to fry than Dathan. He was truthful with the investigators -- showed where he likely received excess L-carnitine and improper prescription drugs. I'm not going to persecute this guy for being honest about it right away and then separating himself from NOP. He takes some accountability for his time there. I'm far more concerned with the rest of them who are still drinking the Kool-Aid and taking no accountability for their own athletic career, as if their coaches and doctors do it all and they get to turn a blind eye.
It's important to note that L-carnitine itself is not illegal. It depends on how you take it and how much. People at NOP probably used it legally and may still use it quite legally. You can drink it and if you do so regularly it may stay with you for some effective use, but still nowhere near as much as having it pumped straight into your body to saturate your system.
That's the whole thing about what Salazar and Dr. Brown were doing that makes it egregious. They knew what was legal and what was not legal, so they take something like L-carnitine that's not illegal to have in your system and then just fudge any evidence that would show you received it improperly or too much of it.
You nailed it.
I agree with you wrote:
Shoebacca wrote:
There are much bigger fish to fry than Dathan. He was truthful with the investigators -- showed where he likely received excess L-carnitine and improper prescription drugs. I'm not going to persecute this guy for being honest about it right away and then separating himself from NOP. He takes some accountability for his time there. I'm far more concerned with the rest of them who are still drinking the Kool-Aid and taking no accountability for their own athletic career, as if their coaches and doctors do it all and they get to turn a blind eye.
It's important to note that L-carnitine itself is not illegal. It depends on how you take it and how much. People at NOP probably used it legally and may still use it quite legally. You can drink it and if you do so regularly it may stay with you for some effective use, but still nowhere near as much as having it pumped straight into your body to saturate your system.
That's the whole thing about what Salazar and Dr. Brown were doing that makes it egregious. They knew what was legal and what was not legal, so they take something like L-carnitine that's not illegal to have in your system and then just fudge any evidence that would show you received it improperly or too much of it.
You nailed it.
+1
They're still using L-carnitine, just inject it within WADA rules. They either get an IV every freaking day, or several in a day according to WADA rules.
There's this current weird media, twitter, and letsrun obsession with current NOP athletes. Other pros are straight up throwing mud at the current NOP athletes. Who are the bigger fish to fry exactly? Obviously Rupp, anyone else? Technically Ritz took someone's spot in the 2012 olympic trials after receiving an illegal infusion. How is that not noteworthy?
Les wrote:
Scorpion_runner wrote:
Ritz gets a pass because he questioned the legality of everything, but was told that it was legal, and he cooperated with everything. And he moved away from the group. Him and Kara get a pass.
Nope. Ritz does not get a pass. If he tests positive for a PED that NOP injected him with, WADA doesn't care if he didn't know or questioned the legality of the injection. Athletes are responsible for the substances in their bodies. Ritz is lucky that a paper trail doesn't lead to him.
Dathan does get a pass. He did not know that the amount injected at the time broke the rules (and it may not have).
Dathan WOULD NOT take anything even remotely linked to Cancer. Can you imagine how he felt finding out afterwards?
Kara, maybe no pass as she waited till they booted her, then spoke up.
Dathan didn't want to break any rules and if someone LIED about the amount that he was given, how is that his fault? How would he have known, he's not a doctor.
Dril wrote:
There's this current weird media, twitter, and letsrun obsession with current NOP athletes. Other pros are straight up throwing mud at the current NOP athletes. Who are the bigger fish to fry exactly? Obviously Rupp, anyone else? Technically Ritz took someone's spot in the 2012 olympic trials after receiving an illegal infusion. How is that not noteworthy?
Ritz earned that spot you bozo!!!!
Pfffffft. wrote:
whistleblower. wrote:
You’re just now reading this? It was in the USADA report from a few years ago. He was a victim, as was everyone who whistleblew on how cheating was forced on them- not done at their own will. Hence why Salazar and Dr Brown were banned and not the athletes.
A "victim"?! Hahahaha! Kind of like how a getaway driver didbt actually rob the bank...
Terrible comparison.
For Ritz, it's more like Salazar needed a ride to the bank, Ritz took him there, then when he realized Salazar was robbing the bank he let him run and waited for the cops to show up.
NOPe wrote:
been around wrote:
When I see your user name I know I'm about to read something dumb. You never fail me. By the way, according to the report, Ritz never participated in anything illegal.
According to the report, none of the athletes did anything illegal except Magness. People covered their tracks, Salazar included, but the truth is staring you right in the face if you have eyes to see.
People like to be all nuanced when its their golden boy or girl on the line, but NOP and its athletes are dopers and they all have astericks next to their name. Don't associate with bad actors if you don't want to be called a bad actor.
Ritz's case is especially troubling, and what little he did to try to distance himself from it near the end counts for nothing.
Little? He moved 2500 miles to Michigan, lost his sponsorship, refused to wear his NOP singlet in his last marathon under NOP. Then, he spoke to NYT and told the TRUTH. He reacted about as appropriate as you can imagine and it certainly was not "little"
Ritz and his defenders sound just like George Hincapie in the Armstrong case. Ritz built a career on doping and participating in a bigger doping operation and then rolled over on it when everything started to unravel. Just because Alberto was so good at hiding or altering the evidence doesn't remotely mean Ritz never doped. It just means that Alberto and Ritz successfully destroyed all the evidence of Ritz's doping so USADA couldn't prove it.
heard this story before wrote:
Ritz and his defenders sound just like George Hincapie in the Armstrong case. Ritz built a career on doping and participating in a bigger doping operation and then rolled over on it when everything started to unravel. Just because Alberto was so good at hiding or altering the evidence doesn't remotely mean Ritz never doped. It just means that Alberto and Ritz successfully destroyed all the evidence of Ritz's doping so USADA couldn't prove it.
Ritz built his career around doping? Wow, you're a loose cannon who obviously doesn't like him personally. Ritz did not build his career around doping you jealous dipsh*t!
Ritz spent over a year out of competition. He claimed injury, which is possible. I think it is also possible that he served a one year ban. Just like the US Postal guys who quietly served short bans as cooperators while Lance's case was proceeding.
Did anyone read the NYT article that has a link on the front LR page today? I think it's fair. I don't care what sport you do, whether it's volleyball, car racing, football, running, cycling, or bowling, if you are competing against international competition for money and medals, you go right to the limit of the rules to maximize performance and your chances of winning. To do less than this that is holding you back your potential. For distance runners, it's a no-brainer to train at higher altitudes, etc.
Frankly I could care less whether NOP athletes were taking the highest allowed doses of l-carnitine. That may be helpful for recovery, but it's no EPO in terms of performance effect. Anyone can go into CVS or Whole Foods and buy l-carnitine, and you may even try to max up the dosages. The same is true for other over-the-counter supplements you can buy. Skin patches for testosterone are definitely illegal unless you have TUE, and those can be easily faked. So that's not good for Salazar.
I don't think anyone really knows what "clean" is anymore -- does it even make sense? People "cheat" in everything else in society, so it's quite amusing and hypocritical to act holier than thou for running.
WinnytheBish wrote:
NOPe wrote:
According to the report, none of the athletes did anything illegal except Magness. People covered their tracks, Salazar included, but the truth is staring you right in the face if you have eyes to see.
People like to be all nuanced when its their golden boy or girl on the line, but NOP and its athletes are dopers and they all have astericks next to their name. Don't associate with bad actors if you don't want to be called a bad actor.
Ritz's case is especially troubling, and what little he did to try to distance himself from it near the end counts for nothing.
Little? He moved 2500 miles to Michigan, lost his sponsorship, refused to wear his NOP singlet in his last marathon under NOP. Then, he spoke to NYT and told the TRUTH. He reacted about as appropriate as you can imagine and it certainly was not "little"
He did not lose his Nike contract until 2016. He remained advised by Alberto after departing NOP and it appears they were on decent terms. He ran his last marathon with NOP in an NOP uniform and started 2015 in a generic Nike pro kit, see Campaccio, US XC, NYC Half. He did not speak with the NYT on specifics of his time with Salazar.
from Flotrack and MLive
May 9th 2014 - "Dathan Ritzenhein is moving back to Michigan, according to mlive .com. The 31-year-old will no longer be a member of the Oregon Project, but will still be sponsored by Nike. Coach Alberto Salazar will remain as an advisor to Ritzenhein."
The three-time U.S. Olympian noted that the move had "nothing to do with Portland or my relationship with Alberto." But rather, the move was one that would bring Ritzenhein and his wife, Kalin Toedebusch, both closer to their Grand Rapids area home.
from runnerspace
Feb 5th 2015 - SB: This past off-season, you made a big switch, moving from Portland back to your home state of Michigan. How's the transition been? Is Alberto still advising you from afar and do you have any semi-regular training mates now?
DR: This summer I moved home to West Michigan, where my wife and I are both from. I spent seven years in Oregon, two in Eugene and five in Portland, training with Alberto at the Nike Oregon Project. We have kids and wanted to be home and close to our families after 13 years of living away. Alberto does not coach me anymore, but he will always have my back and I will have his. I love my teammates there and that is one of the biggest things I miss. I do still get some strength training from Dave McHenry, the Nike Oregon Project strength coach and physio.
from NYT
"Ritzenhein declined to comment on specifics of his time with Salazar, instead deferring to his sworn testimony in the report"
ritz got the vote from here = not doping willingly = innocent
rupp got the vote from here = fooling himself into believing not doping = guilty
centrowitz is somewhere between the two.
and all these guys are cleaner than most anything out of africa these days.