ALBERTO SALAZAR BANNED FROM ATHLETICS FOR FOUR YEARS FOR DOPING VIOLATIONS

ex-runner wrote:

Yg102 wrote:

Amazing. Letsrun.com posters with this news still obsessed with accussing east Africans of doping to almost justify Salazar's crime. These people have deep ego and insecurity issues...like a form of narcissism. If someone cut them off in traffic this morning they'd probably find some way of linking it to imagined east African doping. Fragile fragile egos.

I've said it over and over and most recently when posters were discussing 'who is worse Kenya or Morocco?'

The answer is the USA. It's always been the USA

+1.

I'd say Russia too of course, but they are already banned.

Count number of doping cases by US stars throughout history.

Frightening number.

loomanati wrote:

A panel wouldn't be able to find Genzebe Dibaba or El Guerrouj guilty of doping. Do you believe them to be clean?

I appreciate this thought, I am highly skeptical of both to be clear.

However, the main difference here is coach v athletes. I would be SHOCKED if a panel reached a conclusion that Jama Aden did not dope his athletes (or whomever coached El G), and in fact, was working extraordinarily hard to ensure that he was NOT doping his athletes.

If such a panel did reach that conclusion I would, of course, want to see the evidence, but it would certainly give me more pause and likely move me from "Almost certainly doping" to "I'm still suspicious but maybe they weren't".

The big kicker is that the panel clearly stated that Salazar did commit doping violations himself, but that he did so in an effort to ensure that his athletes were compliant with WADA code, not being sabotaged, etc. I have zero problem with anyone who wants to look at the evidence and say "Ok...but...I'm still skeptical. Feels dodgy". I get that. I have a definite problem with people saying "Salazar athletes are clearly and obviously tainted now". The arbitration panel decision was the only new piece of evidence over the last 72 hours. It's blatantly supportive of Salazar not actually doping his athletes.

This is sounding more like the case, yes.

But what, then, would make the panel conclude that Salazar committed such an offense justifying a 4 year ban from the sport? It's quite a statement to make after complimenting him on his perceived intentions and motivations. There have never been any positives at NOP and others have gotten a slap on the wrist. Was it his position as a coach? A successful coach? His association with Nike, Lance Armstrong? I think reasonable people could conclude that - if AS was just acting as a coach with a unique and however justified level of paranoia and OCD - this is personal at some level.

Armstronglivs wrote:

I don't think the USADA found Salazar's violations "underwhelming" - and nor, I would think, has Salazar - as he has been kicked out of the sport for 4 years. No athletes are permitted to associate with him. Disgrace is so "underwhelming".

Jarrion Lawson also got a 4 year ban for an infinitesimal amount of a substance commonly found in meat in the US. I don't think he was a doper either. Just calling it like I see it.

Cut the crap.Salazar is a drug cheat, why would anyone defend him?

LM wrote:

loomanati wrote:

A panel wouldn't be able to find Genzebe Dibaba or El Guerrouj guilty of doping. Do you believe them to be clean?

I appreciate this thought, I am highly skeptical of both to be clear.

So that is how people are able to reconcile being highly skeptical of certain Salazar athletes.

LoneStarXC wrote:

Jack Frost wrote:

Rojo- let's be clear on what Testoboost is. Giant horse sized vitamin pills. It is not testosterone or anything resembling something than a giant multivitamin.

Come on. You don’t seriously STILL believe Sleazy Sal? He CLAIMED that Rupp was taking Testoboost instead of Testosterone after that photo was released.

There's no reason not to believe it (other than the a priori assumption that he's always lying)

critic 100 wrote:

Cut the crap.Salazar is a drug cheat, why would anyone defend him?

I don't really mind him getting banned because I think he toyed too much with boundaries and overall was not a good influence on individuals, I just don't think it's as cut and dry as many on the board have made it out to be.

One thing I thought was funny was how much the decision affirmed that he favored Galen even more than Farah. That email to Lance saying that he was only going to tell Galen Rupp how effective the infusions were was something.

I would not be at all shocked if Rupp was given the same or similar infusion amount of levocarnitine as Magness and Salazar just trusted him to keep his mouth shut since Rupp is basically his son. In fact, I'd be kind of surprised if he didn't. I thought Ritzenhein's testimony about how much better the stuff made Magness was pretty amusing.

That said, it's undisputed that they found out about the L-carnitine in Nov/Dec 2011. Prior to that, Rupp's PRs were 3:39/7:42/13:06/26:48. His PRs now are 3:34/7:30/12:58/26:44, so aside from the shorter stuff, which he didn't race a whole lot early in his career, not a major shift if he was taking illegal infusions.

Hardloper wrote:

LoneStarXC wrote:

Come on. You don’t seriously STILL believe Sleazy Sal? He CLAIMED that Rupp was taking Testoboost instead of Testosterone after that photo was released.

There's no reason not to believe it (other than the a priori assumption that he's always lying)

Heck, there is extra reason to believe it, because as discussed above his given narrative is highly consistent, and fits perfectly with what we know about his personality.

As above, for VAST majority of people, Salazar's explanation would be eye roll worthy. Salazar however, has consistently shown him to be a highly paranoid, skeptical person. Taking both that, and the consistency of his explanation, it's a solid case. Anyone rejecting it as "certainly false" is clearly just trying to grind an axe.

That's a big old wall of text.

I think we agree on the conclusion, which is that if that explanation is absurd on its face, the person to blame for having committed doping offenses for absurd reasons is Alberto Salazar. Not USATF. No WADA. Not the news media. Not the public who reads that he has been banned for committing doping violations.

I agree. It is quite a statement.

It does fit in my mind. Why? Salazar blatantly and clearly crossed the line testing things out on Magness and with his son, and also trafficked substances. These are serious offenses, and warrant the 4 year ban. Committing doping acts and trafficking substances, even if done with good intention, are serious offenses.

Basically, AlSal was trying so hard and was, as per his personality, so paranoid of having his athletes do anything that would be illegal, that he took illegal action on his own accord to ensure clean athletes. What he did was unquestionably against the rules. In my mind, the ban is warranted.

I would really like a clear explanation for Rupp's "testosterone medication chart" but in general, everything I have heard of Salazar doesn't paint to a "likely doping his athletes".

Yes, Salazar is absolutely, beyond any shadow of a doubt to blame for his own doping violations. He clearly committed them.

Where the explanation is important, in it's truthfulness (but yes, unquestionable absurdity), is with regards to NOP athletes. It's absurd that Salazar was worried about people rubbing substances on his athletes. It doesn't change that Salazar committed doping infractions, but it does change the why. It goes from "Salazar wanted to dope his athletes and see what he could get away with" to "Salazar was trying to protect his athletes and make sure they were safe and not committing violations".

Under former explanation it reads "NOP almost certainly doping", under latter it reads "NOP likely not being led to drop by Salazar".

As discussed above, the latter explanation and conclusions about Salazar and his motivations are far more compelling than the former.

Correct wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

I've said it over and over and most recently when posters were discussing 'who is worse Kenya or Morocco?'

The answer is the USA. It's always been the USA

+1.

I'd say Russia too of course, but they are already banned.

Count number of doping cases by US stars throughout history.

Frightening number.

You do realize this case being brought down by USADA and not and an international agency. Give me an example of Kenya or Morocco taking any serious action against doping. Every country that is involved in athletics at a high level has a doping issue. The USA is one of the only countries in the world with an anti-doping agency with any level of competence, al albeit a very low one making any effort to fight doping. Look at the percentage of US athletes sanctioned by WADA vs USADA. WADA is worthless and all the countries relying on them or their complete farce of a national agency face I much lower standard. If these other countries had a national doping agency at the level of USADA much more of their athletes would be testing positive.

We have a more sophisticated national agency. That said we also have more sophisticated dopers in some cases. But more than 90% of the nations in the world absolutely do not have a national agency with the capability to suspend a national figure like Salazaar or Lance. If USADA didn't do anything like most nations programs you would hear of far less infractions by US coaches and athletes.

Before you crap us on what is your country doing to fight doping? Because I don't want to hear about your better track record of competing clean when you aren't doing anything to uncover the cheaters.

Alot of people are comparing this to Lance - when it's waaaaay different, Nike is already publicly defending him and lawyering up HARD.

After reading the report I don't see how Salazar doped any athletes? Even Bill Rodgers is backing Salazar in the NY Times article. A HUGE overreach by USADA - predictions on when this gets overturned?

critic 100 wrote:

Cut the crap.Salazar is a drug cheat, why would anyone defend him?

^This.

As explicitly spelled out in the panel's decision:

"Respondent [Salazar] testified that he first used testosterone for at least “some months” in 1991,

four years prior to retiring from competitive running."

Hardloper wrote:

There's no reason not to believe it (other than the a priori assumption that he's always lying)

Well, here too, look at the decision:

"Mr. Magness testified that while he was working at the NOP, he came across a Galen Rupp medical record from 2002 that included the line “Presently on prednisone and testosterone medication”.382 Mr. Rupp testified that in 2002, he was 15 years old and was not using testosterone, Dr. Myhre (the head of the Nike lab (now deceased)) was working on a study relating to the use of altitude tents and would interview Mr. Rupp and take notes from those interviews.383 Mr. Rupp believed this notation came to be on his chart because he was taking Testo Boost at the time and “I would have told him I was taking that, and – I’m sure he just made a – you know, he’s like, Okay. Well, is it all right if I just write testosterone medication down? And that’s how I believe it came down there.”384"

So:

1) The official record did indeed state "prednisone and testosterone medication".

2) Rupp claims this record to be false, without providing evidence, because the doc wrote it down wrong.

Dude, Rekrunner isn't saying and I'm not saying that USADA isn't trying to catch dopers. They are of course terribly underfunded compared to number of athletes they have to keep track of, but that is another story.

That does not mean that american athletes doesn't dope to a worrying degree.

Neither Rekrunner or I are saying that the US SHOULD be banned. I realize there is a big difference between the state run doping system in Russia and wellfunded sophisticated athletic communities in the US that dope and beat the system because they outsmart USADA/WADA, but none of the above means that the USA don't have an issue with doping.

I'll even give you that Kenya is an obvious candidate to be banned. Not because the state itself facilitates doping like Russia, but because they are horribly underfunded in combination with huge corruption.

Saying that 90% of other doping agencies wouldn't go after someone like Salazar is a simplified statement at best. Doping is now criminalized in much of western Europe for instance and in countries with dubious doping history like Austria you will risk very real jail time if caught. I'd say the first country that really started a "war" on EPO is France. Many countries in Europe test their athletes at a much higher frequency than the US. There are several recent exapmles of Australia catch their own athletes and when was the last time you heard of a Japanse athlete doping?

But still, even though USADA are doing their best I guess, it still doesn't change the fact that when it comes to the US and doping, from this world's alone:

1st and 2nd in the 100 meters in Doha have HUGE asterisk's behind their name.

2nd in the 800m for women as well.

And now all athletes from NOP will rightfully be questioned. (American and none americans)

Not saying that they all dope, but even though I understand why many athletes would want to join that program, I also believe an athlete like Jenny Simpson with a very convincing attitude on doping, wouldn't have run with that group even if she could, just because of the optics if nothing else.

So yeah, If it makes you happy, I'll admit to the US being so big that you also have plenty of athletes that are not tainted in any way. I haven't seen anything to think that the New Balance or Tinman Elite athletes are cheating for instance. I'll even give Bowerman Track Club a pass for now even if there are some red flags.

But athletics in the US has and have had a significant doping issue for ages, more so than almost any other country on earth. Fact.

Correct wrote:

Saying that 90% of other doping agencies wouldn't go after someone like Salazar is a simplified statement at best. Doping is now criminalized in much of western Europe for instance and in countries with dubious doping history like Austria you will risk very real jail time if caught. I'd say the first country that really started a "war" on EPO is France. Many countries in Europe test their athletes at a much higher frequency than the US. There are several recent exapmles of Australia catch their own athletes and when was the last time you heard of a Japanse athlete doping?

^This.

Operation Aderlass for example showed how helpful the police can be. They just raided the "lab". Similar with the Aden story (police searching the hotel rooms), who unfortunately escaped to Qatar of all places.

USADA, no teeth. They had to ask to get emails from Salazar, and then wait and wait until his versions were ready...

And if someone here is so stupid to test positive, all kinds of excuses get accepted (kissed, ate beef, you name it).

I'll make it simpler.

Team GB at this Games who have had doping related incidents: 0.

US athletes: Justin Gatlin, Mike Rodgers, Will Claye, Christian Coleman, Ajee Wilson, Brianna McNeal, Inika McPherson, Gwen Berry

Extra mentions: NOP athletes and Kenny Bednarek (trained by Gatlin's doping coach who imports HGH)