I am running my first marathon very soon and at the end of training I’m still clueless on marathon pace. My general everyday run is around 8:30-8:45 pace and this feels relaxed, breathing calmly through nose, heart rate is aerobic (150ish). My tempo pace (LT) is around 7:10 for a 20 min run and 7:15-7:20 for a 40 min. Heart rate around 165 for that. I feel like marathon pace is obviously somewhere in the grey area between those two paces but I don’t know where.
Also the other thing I was going to ask was about breathing during marathon pace. I’m assuming it’s somewhat conversational the early stages of the marathon but at some point are you breathing hard like a tempo or no?
Assuming you've done the work, your MP is around 7:50 min/mile.
do you have times for some other distances?
and as far as the breathing goes, ive only run 1, but i was fairly conversational throughout. I was fit enough to be around 10 to 15 minutes slower than my predicted time from 5k.
Answer might be different if you are perfectly fit and able to attack the race.
5 months ago (prior to starting marathon training) ran a 1:39 half off low mileage (25 mpw average). Haven’t raced since. 5k, again, haven’t raced recently, but ran 21:30-22 a couple times in the last year off 25 mpw. Mileage has been 40-45 mpw for the last 4 months, peaked at 55 a couple weeks
I don’t think I’ve ever gotten a straight simple answer like this on these boards ever—thank you.
7:50 sounds fast. I had been thinking 8:10 perhaps
I'd also guess around 7:50. Start off a bit slower than that, and don't let yourself get any faster until mile 20. Your eventual MP may end up being faster or slower depending on how the race goes.
Have you consulted the McMillian calculator?
7:50 sounds about right. That would be JD's VDOT 46 for an MP of 7:49. Threshold pace for that is 7:17 so this sounds close. If you want to error on the side of caution run at 8 flat and speed up later if you have the goods that day.
Icouldbeyourmom wrote:
5 months ago (prior to starting marathon training) ran a 1:39 half off low mileage (25 mpw average). Haven’t raced since. 5k, again, haven’t raced recently, but ran 21:30-22 a couple times in the last year off 25 mpw. Mileage has been 40-45 mpw for the last 4 months, peaked at 55 a couple weeks
Just a guess, but I think with the training at 70 to 90km/week you would be closer to 21min 5km. I would advise you to do a TT. I don't have any programs for my runners that do not involve clear benchmark efforts/races.
You also seemed to convert that 5km into a good HM , which shows probable efficiency and good form. a 22min 5km should be roughly 1:37, so 1:39 to me is great off 40km/wk
So if you are now able to break 21min, I would say that you are capable of sub 3:30, which is 5min/km ...what is that in miles?,,,,around 8, so close to what the others are saying.
If I knew you better...I would say, sub 3:25
Icouldbeyourmom wrote:
I am running my first marathon very soon and at the end of training I’m still clueless on marathon pace. My general everyday run is around 8:30-8:45 pace and this feels relaxed, breathing calmly through nose, heart rate is aerobic (150ish). My tempo pace (LT) is around 7:10 for a 20 min run and 7:15-7:20 for a 40 min. Heart rate around 165 for that. I feel like marathon pace is obviously somewhere in the grey area between those two paces but I don’t know where.
First marathon and fairly low mileage? Dude, keep it easy. If you are breathing hard early on (especially within first 18 miles) you will likely hit a painful wall.
Given that you don't seem to be too hung up on a given time goal (which is a good thing given a first attempt at that distance), I'd say go out easy at about 8:30 pace (just over 3:40 pace), start easy and relaxed.
At about 5 miles. now that you're warmed up and cruising, you can perhaps pick it up a bit, but NOT TOO FAST. Stay with your HR in the 150 range. If you're fresh and tapered, perhaps you'll show 8:15 pace. No faster.
Stay like this for another 10 miles.
At 15 miles, do a quick self-check. Are your muscles tightening up and fatiguing? if so relax, take it back a notch. if you're feeling great, continue, perhaps even so slightly fast.
At 20 miles, you just need to bring it home in one piece. A successful first marathon for you would show 3:35-3:39.
You have the rest of your life to break 3:30, 3:15, or whatever and go for bonk or bust. But here, try to make it successful and run it through.
Truth is the marathon is a real test of endurance, and you won't be anywhere your LTHR until you are very, very trained (5+ marathons, 75+ mpw, maybe 90).
My own experience? On similar PRs I went 3:50 then 3:50 then 3:17 then 2:56. I run my easy days at 8:50-9:00 (morning) and 8:20-8:30 (evenings, warmed up). My marathon HR is in the 150s, LTHR 168. Limitation has always been muscular endurance not lactate clearance at these levels (far lower than LTHR, and I've run up to 65 mpw sustained).
So I hope you have a GREAT first marathon --- go out in 8:30s and enjoy that day! Don't go out too fast please. And report back!
PS ignore any VDOT or McMillan table for now. It is your FIRST marathon, and anyone responding to this thread not taking this into account is clearly misguided. You need a wide margin of error without the experience. 2 times your half PR + 20 min would also be ok(ish). Anyone talking about 7:50 pace for 26.2 miles when your 40 min tempo is 7:15-7:20 is nuts. There's theory, and then real world. VDOT and McMillan assume you're ideally prepared for your level of fitness across the board, from that 5k/10k/half reference to the marathon. You'll get closer and closer to the correspondence with each trial, but the first one is likely to be far off, and any attempt to cut 5-10 min off your marathon time will cost you 30-45 min of walking/cramping. Not worth it.
For a first marathon, have a goal of finishing so aim for the slow end of what calculators suggest as marathon pace. First 10 miles should feel very easy, like you've done nothing. At 15 miles, starts to feel a little harder. 20 miles is the halfway point. Last 5 miles feels very hard.
I am here checking in on LR to troll and read the trolls. But what is this? It seems like some kind of civil, positive, pragmatic, and productive conversation about running. WTF?
Seeing as it’s your first marathon you may be surprised just how tough it can be to even finish, especially if you haven’t ran at least 4-5 18-20 milers first! I highly suggest you don’t plug your 5k time into the JD calculator and try and hit your prescribed marathon pace the first time around. Those calculators usually apply more to the highly aerobically developed runners (so, basically people that have about 2 years or more of consistent 55-60ish mile weeks).
I would aim for sub 3:40! Go out the first half in 1:48-1:50 and see how you feel from there, don’t try anything crazy - it’s your first!
You might be capable of more physically but it’s much better to run a slightly more conservative first marathon and get a slower time than to foolishly go out at your half PR pace assuming you’ll be fine because you’ve been putting in the miles then blow up at mile 18 and become discouraged from ever running another! Plus, taking it at 90% effort instead of 99% effort will allow you to recover more quickly, and if you do run 3:40ish relaxed - you have experience of marathon pacing and you can almost guarantee you’ll run sub 3:30 or maybe even sub 3:25 during your next marathon!
In order to get much past sub 3:20 though, in my opinion you’d want your 5k time to be closer to 20:00 rattan than 22:00!
Icouldbeyourmom wrote:
I don’t think I’ve ever gotten a straight simple answer like this on these boards ever—thank you.
7:50 sounds fast. I had been thinking 8:10 perhaps
Honestly, I’d try 8:30 pace for your first! And I’d take the first few miles at closer to 9 pace! I am speaking from experience, I have a 20 flat 5k and ran 1:39 off 25-30mpw-ish just like you! Over the last few months, I have bumped up to 40mpw with one week peaking at 55 mpw. I only had 2 marathon-based long runs under my belt which was a 17 miler at 8:30 pace and a 20 miler at 9:00 pace. For reference, I was doing my half marathon-based tempo runs at 7:30 pace which means about 8 or 9 miles usually. I ran my first marathon (on that training) in 3:48! I felt great after the marathon and didn’t blow up! Most runners blow up heavy during their first so I went out at 9’ pace until the 3 hour mark then smashed the last 10k at 8 flat pace!
I know for a fact if I went out any faster I would have blown up. I’m definitely aiming for sub 3:40 or Good For Age (female) during my next marathon!
You sound like a female (?) me five years ago - but 10 seconds per mile faster. My tempo pace was 7:20 and MP was 8:00 which I did successfully two years in a row. However I went out at 7:50 ish both times because it felt like nothing - until mile 18 when suddenly it felt like something.
I agree with Ernest that 7:50 is probably your pace.
Don't worry about breathing getting more difficult but you need to fuel properly because the energy drain/fatigue sets in late in the race and some muscle soreness .
Are you asking about MP for the actual race, or a guide for MP in training sessions? No good reason not to experiment in training with paces around 8:10-7:50 and review HR data / progress as you continue to train based on the paces you already hit. But then trade that off against how hard you find 20m long runs at 8-45-9:00 to guage what you might be able to do on race day.
Wise advice on race day is to aim for a comfortable pace all the way up to 18-20 miles or so, and then enjoy dropping the pace and overtaking all those who set off too fast! Then sign up for your next marathon targeting a more specific pace.
This is the correct answer here OP!
I was asking for the race itself.
I should add I’ve done two 20 mile runs during peak weeks. One at 8:25 pace felt great (good weather). The second at 9 pace felt horrible (very hot day).
I also ran a few 16-17 miler at 8:30 pace, all fine, and my best longer run was 15 miles at 8:15, which felt surprisingly good.
My best medium long run was 11 miles at 7:50 pace and that bad boy was hard work.