Ivy League is no better in terms of talent and performance than D2. Change my mind.

As in one of conference compared to the entire division 2? Sure. The ~300 Ivy League runners vs 5,000? D2 would send the same # to D1 nationals.

Your story’s full of holes.

There are definitely a few top tier D2 teams/programs and individuals that would give some top tier DI teams/programs and individuals some major competition.

However, (at least in my days in the Ivy League) there is quite a bit of depth with the top 30-40 runners at conference in cross country. We'd have a few all stars like a Ben True or a Kyle Merber or a Donn Cabral etc (to name a few). But the depth on certain teams was pretty good (our big distance rivals were Princeton at the time who would have like at least 3-4 sub 14:00 guys on their team usually. I was only the 3rd best 10km runner on the Cornell track team my senior year with a 29:47 that season (we had 2 guys at 29:30 and under). It got more competitive after I graduated in 2009.

Historically programs like Dartmouth and Columbia have had some really good cross country teams on the national scene.

One metric would be to see how many guys "went pro" after college from the Ivy League vs D2? Or how many OTQ qualifiers there are? But you are comparing a small conference in D1 to all the D2 schools then?

One final note on "talent." If you are a "footlocker finalist" type (or sub 9:00 2-miler) and have decent grades and a decent SAT score (well certainly above average) then you could easily get recruited by an Ivy. The draw may be a certain academic program's "prestige" or even need based financial aid...which the Ivies can be known for and very generous with...along with an extensive alumni network which can prove invaluable in furthering one's career. Those kinds of things tend to pull in more talent. Of course certain D2 schools have things like that as well, but it depends on the program/school. Whether or not a 9:00 2-miler progresses well as a runner depends on the coach and the college lifestyle that athlete chooses though. There could be a 9:30-9:40 kid who ran D2 who ends up being much better in the long run.

Ivy League

5000 Meters (Men) Top↑

ATHLETE TEAM TIME

1 Zabilski, Brian Columbia 13:53.51

2 Lundy, Conor Princeton 13:53.98

3 Tuntivate, Kieran Harvard 13:57.60

4 Grossman, Matt Princeton 14:06.59

5 Schreiner, Lucky Columbia 14:08.75

6 Spiezio, Jeremy Princeton 14:09.65

7 Daly, Cameron Brown 14:09.96

8 Battershill, Will Harvard 14:12.18

9 Deokar, Viraj Princeton 14:13.40

10 Martins, Franco Brown 14:19.27

11 Carey, Noah Penn 14:21.37

12 Russo, Anthony Penn 14:21.94

13 Perreira, Matthew Harvard 14:27.95

14 Lomogda, Jonathan Yale 14:28.29

15 Melville, David Harvard 14:29.30

16 Kintzele, Jakob Princeton 14:29.37

17 Murray, Brendan Yale 14:29.70

18 Roth, Alex Penn 14:30.70

19 Cohen, Daniel Penn 14:34.38

20 Daly, Colin Penn 14:35.45

21 Vorbach, David Columbia 14:35.83

22 Cooney, Quinn Dartmouth 14:35.91

23 Fusco, Matt Cornell 14:36.07

24 Pompilj, Marco Dartmouth 14:36.16

25 Reimer, Tomas Cornell 14:36.63

DII

5000 Meters (Men) DII Auto 13:54.33 DII Prov 14:32.80 Top↑

ATHLETE TEAM TIME

1DII AutoDII Prov Panning, Zach Grand Valley St. 13:37.94

2DII AutoDII Prov Gedyon, Elias Adams State 13:45.66

3DII Prov Stack, Taylor Western Colorado 13:58.64

4DII Prov Gidabuday, Sydney Adams State 13:59.69

5DII Prov Sweeney, Charlie Western Colorado 14:00.25

6DII Prov Dominguez, Ruben Cal Poly Pomona 14:01.15

7DII Prov Hoskinson, Josh Colorado Mines 14:04.33

8DII Prov King, Eddie Chico State 14:06.79

9DII Prov Smith, Tai Mount Olive 14:08.84

10DII Prov Laguera, Marcelo CSU-Pueblo 14:08.87

11DII Prov Moreau, Victor Academy of Art 14:09.23

12DII Prov Goforth, Tom Saginaw Valley 14:10.17

13DII Prov Chada, Tanner Grand Valley St. 14:10.32

14DII Prov Julian , Luke Colorado Mines 14:10.94

15DII Prov Theisen, Jonah Black Hills St. 14:11.81

16DII Prov Wallis, Daniel Queens (N.C.) 14:12.51

17DII Prov Husch, Ross Western Colorado 14:12.58

18DII Prov Rayas, Stetson Dallas Baptist 14:15.80

19DII Prov Mastandrea , Jack Charleston (W.V.) 14:16.38

20DII Prov Moran, Kyle Colorado Mines 14:18.04@

21DII Prov Greer, Luke Carson-Newman 14:18.64

22DII Prov Rodarte, Isaiah Adams State 14:18.78

23DII Prov Wammetsberger, Felix Queens (N.C.) 14:19.67

24DII Prov Arnaud , Emeric Davis & Elkins 14:22.38

25DII Prov Hessian, Freddie Academy of Art 14:22.48

26DII Prov Isayan, Vahagn Cal St. San Marcos 14:22.65

27DII Prov Litwiller, Josh Cal St. San Marcos 14:23.08

28DII Prov Pahl, Matthew Michigan Tech 14:23.68

29DII Prov Kimutai, Gidieon Missouri Southern 14:24.38

30DII Prov Talbott, Ryan Saginaw Valley 14:24.50

31DII Prov Herrmann, Colin Grand Valley St. 14:25.83

32DII Prov Miller, Sean Simon Fraser 14:26.45

33DII Prov Weitzel , Jason Concord 14:27.10

34DII Prov Reichl, Braden Michigan Tech 14:27.24

35DII Prov Kemboi, Felix Alaska Anchorage 14:28.84

36DII Prov Humes, Joseph Hillsdale 14:29.37

37DII Prov Kassa, Teddy Chico State 14:30.01

38DII Prov McCartney, George Malone 14:30.70

39DII Prov Reynoso, Alexies Stanislaus State 14:31.60

40DII Prov Jones, Tyler Western Oregon 14:32.10

41DII Prov Urtusuastegui, Jesus Augustana (S.D.) 14:32.12

This is a dumb thread because any high schooler who would turn down the chance to go to an IVY to run at a D2 school is too dumb to get accepted by an IVY in the first place.

Well, why should it be? They don’t have athletic scholarships. They aren’t known for athletic achievement. There are many reasons for top athletes not to choose Ivy League schools even if that’s an option.

Frank Shorter and wejo both were ivy leaguers.

No. The studies have proven that Ivy quality students earn the same amount over their lifetimes whether they gradte from State U or an Ivy College. So the moral of the story is to go to school that has your major and a good running fit at the best price.

Baby Conference wrote:

I'm talking currently and on average. You get a qualifiers out of the Ivies for xc and track Nationals just like the are a few in D2 who could also qualify for D1 Nationals in xc and track.

If you had been educated at an Ivy institution, you would be ashamed to put forth the following as a testable/debatable hypothesis:

"Ivy League is no better in terms of talent and performance than D2. Change my mind."

Instead, you would write something like the following:

If the Ivy League is better in terms of talent/performance than D2 then more Ivy graduates would achieve ... because...

Do your own research buddy.

Sage, I don't believe a word you say. The Ivies aren't that good in D1 sports. Academically they are overrated. You went to Cornell? Ok. Cool story bro. What did you major in? Did you at least major in something worthwhile like math, physics, engineering, chemistry, or molecular biology? If not? Then it doesn't matter your silly diploma says "Cornell." Top D2 schools can destroy all the Ivies.

STEM is here wrote:

Sage, I don't believe a word you say. The Ivies aren't that good in D1 sports. Academically they are overrated. You went to Cornell? Ok. Cool story bro. What did you major in? Did you at least major in something worthwhile like math, physics, engineering, chemistry, or molecular biology? If not? Then it doesn't matter your silly diploma says "Cornell." Top D2 schools can destroy all the Ivies.

Son, you clearly went to a DII institution.

UPSIDE NMOD wrote:

STEM is here wrote:

Sage, I don't believe a word you say. The Ivies aren't that good in D1 sports. Academically they are overrated. You went to Cornell? Ok. Cool story bro. What did you major in? Did you at least major in something worthwhile like math, physics, engineering, chemistry, or molecular biology? If not? Then it doesn't matter your silly diploma says "Cornell." Top D2 schools can destroy all the Ivies.

Son, you clearly went to a DII institution.

I did NOT go to a D2 school. I went to a public D1 sports and Research 1 school.

Put down the crack pipe son.

Smarter than an Ivy Grad wrote:

No. The studies have proven that Ivy quality students earn the same amount over their lifetimes whether they gradte from State U or an Ivy College. So the moral of the story is to go to school that has your major and a good running fit at the best price.

Not quite. The studies your attempting to cite (Dale & Krueger, 1990 and the 2011 follow-up) are not that straight forward. The original study followed students who graduated in 1976 and followed them until 1989. It found no difference in the earning of Ivy grads and those who were admit to Ivies, but attended elsewhere. However, it did not examine the interactions with race, gender, and socioeconomic status. The follow-up study followed the original cohort for an additional 19 years (until 2007) and a new cohort of 1989 graduates (again until 2007). It controlled for race, gender, and socio-economic status and several other factors.

What the follow-up study found added quite a bit of new insight to the original’s conclusions. It found that there WAS a significant positive impact on the earnings of minority graduates, female graduates, and poor graduates of all races and genders, but no impact on the earnings of upper middle class white, male students.

While the media and public interpreted the initial studies conclusion to be that the Ivy name and alumni network don’t matter, the follow-up largely refuted that interpretation. Rather, the follow-up showed that the Ivy name and network had a large impact for those graduates who didn’t already have access to such social capital via their parents. The impact didn’t show up in the initial study because almost all of the student accepted to Ivies in the early 1970s were already upper class and we’ll connected to begin with. Worryingly, the follow-up showed that the importance of the social capital associated with an Ivy degree was actually increasing over time.

More relevant to the OPs post, I ran for an Ivy in the early 2000s and was regularly putting up 14:40s 5Ks on the track. I was not top 7 in cross and only made the Heps squad as a senior when a teammate was injured. While there weren’t many stars in the Heps, there was a lot of depth.

You dont believe the quantitative data I stated? For the record I got a BS. I was originally accepted into the school of engineering, but honestly the math was pretty hard for me (my GPA sucked frosh year). The mode SAT score in math that year of accepted engineering students was a perfect math score. I was far from perfect and only about 60% percentile in SAT II Physics. I was a student athlete and worked part time. It was a great experience and inspiring to be surrounded by so many people that were much smarter than me. World class professors as well. Financially my parents were considered “poor” by Ivy League standards so I got a ton of financial aid, academic merit scholarships and grants. It would have cost me more to go to a public state state school from where I was from. Have I used my college degree? Not really directly. Did i really need it? Not yet. What matters is that you learn how to think and problem solve. I cant thank Rojo enough for taking a chance on me and the education as well as athletic opportunities that I had. College courses and the whole college experience (regardless of what school you are at) can empower you with the kind of knowledge and skill set that sets you up for a good career in life. The kind of students that get accepted to Ivies would likely be successful at any school (and in some cases not even going to college). The network is full of movers and shakers (and many very powerful and wealthy people). I never said we were a DI powerhouse either.

Smarter than an Ivy Grad wrote:

No. The studies have proven that Ivy quality students earn the same amount over their lifetimes whether they gradte from State U or an Ivy College. So the moral of the story is to go to school that has your major and a good running fit at the best price.

The last six US presidents and all nine current Supreme Court justices have Ivy League degrees. Just throwing that out there.

S. Canaday wrote:

I never said we were a DI powerhouse either.

You are the Andy Bernard of post-collegiate running.

D3 North Central College would beat Cornell decisively.

So you got a BS in what? I know silly schools that give BS in sociology or criminal justice. Not all BS degrees are created equal buddy boy! It does not matter that your diploma says Cornell or Harvard when you majored in studio art or what have you! Unless it's a STEM degree it's a real BS, otherwise no.

So we're supposed to compare what the 7 Ivies put out compared to all of D2?

What is the point exactly?

S. Canaday wrote:

...along with an extensive alumni network which can prove invaluable in furthering one's career.

Oh, do mean the rancid nepotism and "meritocratic" upward mobility that is ripping the entrails out of American society? Are you talking about that?