To the Shoe-Market-Insiders: No cheap Vaporfly's?

In other words, you're too cheap to buy them at the current price point.

Here's the thing. They did drop the price of the original 4% when the Next% (or whatever it's called) came out. Nike sets the pricing..not the local running store, nor the online store. You want to carry them? Gotta abide by Nike's rules.

Economics and Marketing 101, my friend. That's they the retail for $250.

No cheap vaporfly’s what?

There is competition. It is called lower prices and all other shoes ! Any other brand's models do not need to go that high to compete against the Vaporfly, indirectly of course. Have a squared and wide forefoot ? Never will choose any nike Shoe. You go with Altra or FuelCell Rebel and just forget about the Carbon Plate and the "Special" foam. Look at Mo, he trains aways in the Streak and the Streak LT and wears the V-Fly very rarely. I am not even sure that he likes them, as in every single video he is with the Streak.

The Vaporfly shoes are great, but only for certain training sessions, certain paces and racing. This is not a do it all shoe. It is not making you faster, but making you more efficient. To make you faster, the carbon plate should be loaded, to give you back more energy than you invested. This is why Spira and Enko shoes are banned from competition.

Knowing this, in case of training all time with the V-Fly, you become actually weaker as you stress your body way less. Kind of unnatural. This is why other shoes sell. Also the thick nature of the shoe makes many people hurt in case of knees and hips and ankles. Because they don't run fast, actually ! The shoe needs a certain minimal pace, to be effective and has a maximal optimal user weight too. So in an overweight and slow runner's case, this shoe is a bad choice.

The 4% shoes are still very superior to other running shoes. Also the production of these shoes , while still cheap, still cost 2 times as much as a Pegasus.

The profit margins are very low too with a high tax-free buy price. It is not the decision of the brand, but the retailer to keep the prices high. When you bought a Streak for 50usd to resell it for 120, you'll gain like 20bucks on a shoe after all things deducted. It is not that different with no linear growth in case of the V-Fly. The Profit margins are not more than 30usd. Sell it for 200 and you are loosing money ! While big enterprises like Wiggle/Alltricks/Runningwarehouse/Zappos/Irun can build big stocks and most probably for this christmas, they will drop prices to sell well under the RRP , small local running stores will be left with dead stock for a long time.

The business and the marketing behind running shoes is extremely inefficient with so little to education. Back in the days people could run 150+ mi a week with no injuries. Because, technique and gradual build up to proficiency was necessary. Nowadays they talk about masking bad run form, heavy weight and all other negatives with technology followed by high prices.

It is very complex subject, but only very specific run shoe brands like Altra for instance can survive by only selling running shoes. Look at Reebok, UA and so. Other type of shoes and an entire clothing line for fitness and fashion. Adidas makes shoes for all sports including even canyoning and race car driving, plus clothes. Nike has clothing for all sports. Salomon is owned by Amer sports and they do skies, carbon bike components, they own Mavic, baseball bat companies and wilson and so on.

I actually cannot even list one company what sells running shoes alone. It is such a little part of the entire sport business. I mean tiny ! Even Altra got bought by VFco. Hoka by Deckers.

So talking about running shoes and running shoe marketing is not really possible without viewing the complex integrity of all sports business.

(MAybe Carlsonfootwer is still individual and selling special run shoes)

Used to own a running store, so I know what I’m talking about, at least in the USA.

The shoe company CANNOT tell you what to charge. They almost all have a UMAP policy. Universal Minimum Advertised Price. If you advertise at a price lower than this, they may sanction you, cut you off, take away your discounts, etc. Usually, UMAP expires for older models.

Sometimes you will see a situation that says, “Call for price,” or “Add to cart to see price.” These are loopholes to UMAP policies. It’s a balancing act between price fixing and maintaining prices.

With the limited edition type of products, the rep could just say casually, “we really want to keep the prestige and exclusivity of X at a high level.” Since most owners have decent relationships with the reps, you’ll get what they mean and basically agree.

I’m sure these shoes are being sold at discounts to employees, family, friends, race team, etc.

You can get cheap knockoffs from China.

Thank you that was exactly what i was looking for. So UMAP means that you agree with a minimum fixed retail price - am i getting it right?

So basically "cost leadership" in a specific segment ist basically not possible for the retailer? For example this isn't possible:

Vendor A buys 1000 Vaporflys @ 150 USD/Pair (assuming total production cost of 40 USD for Nike) and sells them for 200 USD/pair which results in a (simplified) gross-margin of 50 USD / pair

Vendor B is a small vendor. He can't afford to order in bulk and buys 10 Vaporflys @ 180 USD each. Due to lack of economies of scale he needs to sell at 250 USD / pair to cover other expenses.

Do I get it right that Nike would pressure vendor A to also sell at 250 USD ?

Thats what i meant with "no competition". For example no Vaporfly under 250 USD. Sorry for my mistakes - english is not my mothertongue.

Haha. Typical letsrun answer. The question wasn't whether I can afford the shoes or not.

The fact is that in the past like 10 years ago it was easy for a costumer to find a "good deal". You compared prices and found different prices for the same product. Obviously that's not the case anymore (expl. try fo find new VF's for 100 USD and a store that tries to outprice competition).

Brands like to set new Benchmark prices. For instance now everyone accept that a normal brand shoe sells for 150 USD. Of course brands want to maximize profit. Production costs (labour costs) are a joke also transportation (look up manufactoring map of nike - they produce nearly all of their shoes in Vietnam, Indonesia and China etc).

So i was wondering why there is no black market for these shoes. No discounts and so on.

I am no marketing/logistics guy. So that's why i asked. No need to worry about my financial situation - but thanks ;)

there must be very tight supply controls on these shoes. on occasion you can find the previous version Pegasus for $79 (normally 99 or 110), but not so with certain models (such as the VF).

similarly, ive waited and waited to find a sale on Ferragamo driving moccasins, and no sales - nothing ever. you either pay the new price of $595 or go on ebay and find 'new in box' models for maybe 3-$400. the brand must have very tight supply controls, even in the face of much cheaper competitors. all in the name of preserving the brand (my assumption)

Djdhdhhd wrote:

Used to own a running store, so I know what I’m talking about, at least in the USA.

The shoe company CANNOT tell you what to charge. They almost all have a UMAP policy. Universal Minimum Advertised Price. If you advertise at a price lower than this, they may sanction you, cut you off, take away your discounts, etc. Usually, UMAP expires for older models.

Actually, the Supreme Court has now ruled that retail price maintenance is no longer illegal under the Sherman Act, so if shoe companies want to, they can actually require you maintain specific prices, without having to resort to soft measures like sanctions.

Under European antitrust laws, retail price maintenance (even the softer form enforced by sanctions but not by explicit contracts) is illegal.

Levi.Run wrote:

To make you faster, the carbon plate should be loaded, to give you back more energy than you invested. This is why Spira and Enko shoes are banned from competition.

Yes, a shoe that violates the laws of physics would be faster.

Neither Spiras nor Enkos are "banned." The IAAF has a very vague, general rule about shoes, but it hasn't "banned" specific shoes. Spira and Enko claim to be banned because it's good for marketing purposes.

Levi you're kind of missing the point, but nice rant.

until about 2 or 3 years ago, sites like Amazon were overflowing with Nike shoes from 3rd party vendors. Obviously people were obtaining the shoes at wholesale prices and putting some on the shelf at the store at full price to make Nike happy, and selling the rest at a huge discount online. Then Nike cracked down on local stores and completely changed their distribution method. Now my local store gets the Pegasus and the Structure, nothing else. Barely anything is on Amazon.

Whatever they did was very effective.

It’s cheap shoes you want? I can have that arranged...

Hi there. I manage the warehouse where Nike stores all the Vaporflys. It's an unmarked building protected by the US Army.

Anyways, we have a boatload of extra 4% sitting here. We will destroy them next week most likely, if not the week after that. Send me your email address and I'll arrange to get you a few pairs. No problem.

Top secret hookup!

You can find them cheaper on eBay.

Nike is competing with countless shoes from Saucony, Brooks, Hoka, New Balance, Asics, Altra, Adidas, etc.

Nike makes the shoes. They can price them however they want. If retailers/re-sellers don't like it they can choose not to work with Nike. It's called freedom.

Sketchers is dropping theirs in the coming months.

Li Ning has also released images of their carbon shoe.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B2MgxgHHpg6/

https://www.roadrunningreview.com/es/Skechers-Speed-Elite/REVIEW--100546.html

To Nikeshill69, a previous poster says that the vendors have some ability to maintain prices under new rulings and UMAP is less/not relevant anymore.

Your characterization, with the two stores, varying buying power, overhead.......was sort of technically right, but not really how it did/does actually happen.

The reason is that, in most cases, the discounts are quite small. You’d see Nike sometimes goes huge with a 20% discount, but the larger of the mom and pop running specialty got terms (price, payment terms, etc.) that were competitive with big box. Maybe there was a 2% difference, and that is off the wholesale price. Running shoes are not full mark-up. More like 60$ for a 100$ shoe. So 2% off 60$ for a $100 shoe.

If you buy more for better discounts and are stuck with just a few unsold shoes, it was not worth chasing the discount.

I’m better that the 4% prices are staying up because of constrained supply....but I’ve been out of the game for a while.

I have some slightly loved 4% that I'll sell you for $199. Only 200miles basically brand new.