Genzebe Dibaba Out of Worlds

rekrunner wrote:

Likewise, it looks like the analytical part of yours is stuck in the 1960s.

Armstronglivs wrote:

You have no choice. The creative imaginative part of the brain doesn't appear to exist in your case. Unfortunately it is what is necessary to have a grasp of what the world is like outside your basement.

You would need either experience of that period or knowledge of history to know that and, unfortunately, you don't have either. Stuck in the present-day Kenyan Highlands, as perceived through a computer screen.

rekrunner wrote:

I used to find it annoying, but now I find this amusing. I imagine that I'm like Ivan Pavlov, watching the predictable reaction to my username posting controversial posts such as affirming Lance tested positive, and repeating the uncontroverted contents of police reports from the Sabadell bust, and announcing new CAS sanctions, trigger a half-dozen Pavlovian responders, some who continue to expand the definition of "doping apologism/denial".

Imagine my shock! wrote:

Has this turned into a another doping apologist/denying thread by rekrunner? Imagine my shock! Too bad jon orange isn't still around.

You mistake the Pavlovian response; it yours, whenever the topic of doping arises and out you come barking from your kennel. If a dog could speak, in your case it would be saying, over and over, "baseless insinuations and accusations". Given a bone you would demand "evidence" that it exists; even one as meaty as the WADA statement that only 0.5% of tested athletes are caught when up to 40% will be doped.

Spent some time trying to "get to bottom of this." Have you read the El País report on this from June 2018? (I believe this is the most current info available - unless you have something more recent). The Sabadell incident was part of doping operation classified by the Spanish authorities as "Operación Rial" (one of so many doping operations out of Spain. Lol.) The article highlights the prosecution petition:

Here's some portions of the article translated:

"Jama Aden, the athletic trainer who prepares some of the great world stars of the middle ground, such as the Ethiopian Genzebe Dibaba - gold at the World Cup in Beijing and silver at the Rio Games -, faces a request for four and a half years of jail for doping. Aden and his trusted physiotherapist, Ouarid Mounir, could also be disabled to work “in the field of sport” for the same period if they are convicted in a trial whose date has not yet been set. In the letter to which EL PAÍS has agreed, the prosecution accuses Aden of putting the health of its elite athletes at "serious risk" by supplying them with up to eight types of substances."

"At the time of his arrest, in June 2016, the coach prepared the athletes on the Josep Molins tracks for the Rio Games. The prosecutor discharges the athletes and believes that Aden and the physiotherapist used their "ancestry" and their "influence" on them to administer doping."

"The Aranesp, a long-lasting Epo, is a substance that, supposedly, Aden supplied to the athletes who were in charge. As the prosecutor warns, it poses a “serious health risk” and can cause pulmonary embolism and various types of thrombosis. Another of the substances found, Depo-Medrol, is a corticosteroid forbidden in injectable and oral form by the anti-doping code that produces a "feeling of well-being and euphoria", so that "inhibits the sensation of muscle pain" and allows the athlete "Maintain a maximum effort for longer." The adverse effects are also very varied, emphasizes the prosecutor, who attributes to Aden and Mounir a crime against public health and also asks for a fine of 8,400 euros."

"Aden and Mounir doped their athletes "as part of the training system," the accusation incurs. They also provided half a dozen medications (for muscle contractures, to prevent bone loss, to contract blood vessels, etc.) without having any "medical degree" to do so. Aden dispensed those unauthorized drugs in Spain "without any guarantee regarding storage and storage conditions."

The report also mentions they conducted surveillance and monitoring: "They watched as Aden disposed of used and bloodstained syringes "in trash bins and bins on public roads in the vicinity of the hotel."

There was another site that mentioned the Spanish authorities were having extradition issues with Aden (in Qatar?), and that the IAAF was waiting to see the outcome of this prosecution before taking in any action.

That's old news. Give it up, the propagandists and doping apologists here will never stop defending the cheats.

rekrunner wrote:

I think you are confused as to what evidence is available to the IAAF.

Several corrections are in order:

"Her training group" was not caught red-handed. Only the Saudi-physio Ouarid Mounir and athlete Musaeb Balla were caught in possession of EPO. With respect to having enough evidence, Aden was caught with injectable vitamins, and Dibaba was tested and tested negative.

This was the status pretty much from Day 1, and little has changed since then, except the folklore retelling of the bust over the years.

The IAAF, rather than doing "absolutely nothing", have launched proceedings and appeals against Balla, and, I guess due to general public apathy in real world doping cases at letsrun, it went largely unnoticed that CAS have already found him guilty back in June, and handed Balla a 4-year ban.

And Balla has a smoking PB of 1:43.82! So much for your theory that EPO is ineffective for 800m runners.

What an excellent demonstration of both lack of knowledge, and lack of creativity.

Armstronglivs wrote:

You mistake the Pavlovian response; it yours, whenever the topic of doping arises and out you come barking from your kennel. If a dog could speak, in your case it would be saying, over and over, "baseless insinuations and accusations". Given a bone you would demand "evidence" that it exists; even one as meaty as the WADA statement that only 0.5% of tested athletes are caught when up to 40% will be doped.

Yes I have read it. As "casual" observed, this is old news. The prosecutor raises the same questions and issues that I have raised, as yet to be decided questions and issues. We are now in that period in between, where the raised questions and issues are argued, and get decided, if possible. Until then, we must "wait to see the outcome of this prosecution" to see if Aden and Mounir broke any Spanish laws. Only then, it appears, will the IAAF act, and again we must "wait and see the outcome", to see if Aden and Mounir broke any WADA rules. In the meantime, it serves no positive purpose to negatively embellish what few facts we know, and hurt the sport further.

Let's Get To The Bottom Of This wrote:

Spent some time trying to "get to bottom of this." Have you read the El País report on this from June 2018?

...

and that the IAAF was waiting to see the outcome of this prosecution before taking in any action.

My theory is that some runners with smoking PBs of 1:43.82 believe they need to start doping to get even faster. The flaw in the logic here is that a smoking PB of 1:43.82, combined with possession of EPO in a suitcase, doesn't even begin to show that EPO was effective in this example, let alone generally for the 800m. There are too many unanswered questions and potential uncontrolled confounders.

Rocket-Fueled 800m Runners wrote:

And Balla has a smoking PB of 1:43.82! So much for your theory that EPO is ineffective for 800m runners.

rekrunner wrote:

My theory is that some runners with smoking PBs of 1:43.82 believe they need to start doping to get even faster.

The flaw in the logic here is that a smoking PB of 1:43.82, combined with possession of EPO in a suitcase, doesn't even begin to show that EPO was effective in this example, let alone generally for the 800m. There are too many unanswered questions and potential uncontrolled confounders.

Rocket-Fueled 800m Runners wrote:

And Balla has a smoking PB of 1:43.82! So much for your theory that EPO is ineffective for 800m runners.

I don't think you grasp how ridiculous your make yourself when you suggest that athletes are too stupid to realise the illegal substances they are taking don't aid their performances, let alone the delusions that WADA and its scientific experts must be labouring under to ban these substances in the first place. But then that would require sufficient imagination to see yourself as others do and imagination, as we know, is not your strong point. But if the stupidity is not the athletes' then, alas, it must be yours.

Oh the irony never ends. It's not any of the elite middle distance athletes telling me that EPO would be effective for the 1:43.82 800m runner, like Balla. Nor does WADA or any scientific experts address this question about EPO effect for the 1:43.82 800m runner, like Balla. Another one of my theories is that steroids would have a more significant effect than EPO for the 800m, especially for women.

Armstronglivs wrote:

I don't think you grasp how ridiculous your make yourself when you suggest that athletes are too stupid to realise the illegal substances they are taking don't aid their performances, let alone the delusions that WADA and its scientific experts must be labouring under to ban these substances in the first place. But then that would require sufficient imagination to see yourself as others do and imagination, as we know, is not your strong point. But if the stupidity is not the athletes' then, alas, it must be yours.

rekrunner wrote:

Yes I have read it. As "casual" observed, this is old news.

The prosecutor raises the same questions and issues that I have raised, as yet to be decided questions and issues.

We are now in that period in between, where the raised questions and issues are argued, and get decided, if possible.

Until then, we must "wait to see the outcome of this prosecution" to see if Aden and Mounir broke any Spanish laws.

Only then, it appears, will the IAAF act, and again we must "wait and see the outcome", to see if Aden and Mounir broke any WADA rules.

In the meantime, it serves no positive purpose to negatively embellish what few facts we know, and hurt the sport further.

"Negatively embellish what few facts we know?" Say what? Are you stoned or something rekrunner? There's a damning report from the prosecutor's petition of the outcome of "Operación Rial" full of facts on a major doping ring involving Aden and his group. They just can't find Aden (why doesn't he turn himself in if he's so innocent you like postulate?).

Secondly, there's four (4) athletes under his tutelage that are convicted dopers; Driouch, Traby, Desalegn & Balla . Driouch even admitted that Aden had doped him before he later recanted his confession (probably under pressure or a payoff, IMO).

One convicted doper under any elite coach would be enough to arouse some suspicion, but FOUR convicted dopers under the tutelage of one coach! ?. You're either trolling rekunner to liven up the conversation or you know nothing about the world of PED use in elite sport.

So is Drew Hunter ... I guess her coach sucks too huh..? Athletes break down when they force too much stress through an unprepared body.

An amateur Scottish athlete - a cyclist - takes EPO off the internet as an experiment to see what it does for him and whether he can beat anti-doping controls. His VO2 max goes up 7% in 7 weeks and he passes clean in his biopassport. Doping works, it is easy, and so is getting away with it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-32983932

Classic behaviour of a dopper. Attend big money diamond races, skive legitimate big competition with serious doping control testing in place.

is Genzebe out of the woods yet?

All of my posts have the same theme -- asking for the bases in fact while trying to ignore conclusions and judgements that seem premature. Can you elaborate on "full of facts on a major doping ring"? That also sounds like embellishment. But if I am wrong, and it is not, it should be easy to provide many of these facts that link Aden to EPO possession or use. It is easy to come up with allegations and accusations (even for a prosecutor), and to have suspicions. These easy goals do not interest me, as they require little basis, or even no basis at all, and not much thought. The next step, for the prosecution, is to demonstrate the basis for such allegations and accusations, by providing evidence and arguments. This is where we are today -- what are the bases in facts that support suspicions, allegations, and accusations against Aden? This should be a no-brainer to extract from a "petition full of facts". The fact that people want to attack my doubts, rather than support an argument with facts, is rather telling. I filed "4 athletes under his tutelage" as "associations" to Aden. "Guilt by association" is not "basis in fact". From initial police report information made public three years ago, the court may find that Aden broke Spanish law with non-doping substances -- injectable vitamins not legal in Spain -- while the IAAF may be unable to sanction Aden for lack of evidence. Has there been any new facts in the last three years suggesting the outcome will be more than that? Can you elaborate on "they just can't find Aden"? I've seen a few allusions to that. That also sounds like embellishment. Reporters easily found him in a Doha hotel earlier this year. Generally, I'm not interested in "the world of PED use in elite sports" but rather whether such use has impacted, or can impact, distance running performance, and for whom, under which preconditions. This isn't really about the world of PED use in elite sports anyway, but whether there is any substantial basis in fact clearly showing that Aden is part of that world.

Speaking for myself, I have never expressed doubts about EPO for amateurs or EPO for cycling or EPO raising VO2max. Here are my thoughts about this sensational journalism: - It is easy to get EPO everywhere, anywhere there is internet, not just third world pharmacies in Kenya and Ethiopia. - This journalist curiously did not measure cycling performance. VO2max is not cycling performance. - The main goal of athletes is to improve performance -- and this journalist failed to show the most interesting thing. - This journalist did was not properly evaluated by the ABP software, lacking longitude. His EPO use was observable, and while not triggering an ABP positive, would have triggered intelligence based targeted testing. - We just saw in an Ashenden 2011 study, measurements in the washout phase, where RET% drops after injections stop, would have surely triggered the ABP software.

Armstronglivs wrote:

An amateur Scottish athlete - a cyclist - takes EPO off the internet as an experiment to see what it does for him and whether he can beat anti-doping controls. His VO2 max goes up 7% in 7 weeks and he passes clean in his biopassport. Doping works, it is easy, and so is getting away with it.

How to not grasp the obvious.

His performance increased. He described how. He was stronger, trained better and recovered better. He didn't measure the performance gains because he chose not to compete. The point of the experiment was not to see how much faster he could get but to show that he could significantly improve on his natural fitness by using it (even after a period of hard training before he began his drug programme) and that he could beat the biopassport. He achieved both. The tests he passed were standard WADA procedures. Nothing was triggered in his biopassport.

Put simply, an increased ability to use oxygen will allow an athlete to run faster. An increase of 7% VO2 max will translate into gains. Research has shown that a 5% gain in VO2 max enables recreational runners to improve their 10k time by 5 minutes. (For most, that is a considerably greater percentage of performance improvement than 5%.) Elites will not make the same improvements in performance - they don't have to, because even small margins are crucial at the elite level - but there will still be gains because any improvement in ability to use oxygen benefits any athlete, whatever their level. Altitude training is proof of that. Most elites will have a VO2 max in the region of 70+, compared to 35 for the average person. If a high VO2 max was not a necessary feature of being elite then we wouldn't see an elite level of VO2 max. Hence, to improve VO2 max is always advantageous - whether it is done through training or doping. Or a combination of both.

rekrunner wrote:

All of my posts have the same theme -- asking for the bases in fact while trying to ignore conclusions and judgements that seem premature.

Can you elaborate on "full of facts on a major doping ring"? That also sounds like embellishment.

But if I am wrong, and it is not, it should be easy to provide many of these facts that link Aden to EPO possession or use.

It is easy to come up with allegations and accusations (even for a prosecutor), and to have suspicions.

These easy goals do not interest me, as they require little basis, or even no basis at all, and not much thought.

This is your problem, and why you're such a disgrace to the sport. (which you've helped ruin).

You're looking at it from the viewpoint of a defense lawyer in which you know your client is guilty but you can get them off by providing just a small amount of reasonable doubt. As has been said, a number of his athletes are caught cheats and he was caught with a truckload of EPO in his hotel. All you've got is: 'But, but, not his EPO, but but, personal use, but but, circumstantial'. Yes. Maybe a lawyer could talk down the charges in a court of law. Everyone would still know they're all as guilty as sin.

Then when they're actually caught bang to rights, you change the goalposts and say 'well, it doesn't even work anyway so what's the issue?'.