Hansons method - Tempo runs feel tough?

tempo runs should feel comfortably hard.

I've used the Hanson method 2x and I agree the tempo runs are the hardest part mentally. On Race day I knew I could run the pace I ran in training though. I was extremely confident in the training and it was mainly because of the tempo runs.

I did PB 2x in a row with the method . I'm true hobby jogger status so don't beat me up to bad about the times but this is the progression

1st Marathon Traditional Training: 4:08

2nd Marathon Hanson Method: 3:25

3rd Marathon Hired an Online Pro Coach/traditional marathon training: 3:33

4th Marathon Hanson Method: 3:16

Next time I sign up for one i'll use Hanson again.

Yes! I'm also currently using the Hanson's method and I'm in the same week as you. The tempo runs are the toughest part of the program, for sure. I've hit all of the speed/strength workouts and long runs, but I've probably only hit about half of the tempo runs successfully. I've been telling myself it is because of the weather; for some reason, tempo day has been landing on especially hot and humid days for me. I rely heavily on Humphreys' heat/humidity calculator for a weather-adjusted tempo pace. I think another reason that tempo days are tough is because there's only one day between the speed/strength session and the tempo run. I'm usually quite sore going into tempo day.

When I used Hanson's Half Marathon Method I had the same doubts; it took everything I had to finish the 7 mile tempos, and I was seriously questioning how I could possibly hold that pace for 13.1. However, after the taper and with the adrenaline of race day, I hit my goal time perfectly.

If you're able to complete your tempo runs at your goal pace then I'd probably stick with it. Hell, I haven't been hitting my goal pace consistently and I'm still sticking with it. This will be my first marathon, so I'm not exactly an authority on the matter, though. Definitely curious to hear how it works out for you, though.

I'm not super familiar with the Hanson's plan, but I always feel like marathon pace is pretty hard when I'm running other workouts and a high milage load. It gets to be a reeeeally tough effort to do more than 5 or 6 miles at a time at marathon pace. Once I cut back on workouts and milage, marathon pace feels pretty easy (at least for the first 18-20 miles) on race day. The one thing that I would say is that if it is still hot or humid out, the effort required to run a given pace will be a lot higher than it would if it were cool weather, so I wouldn't stress about going 5-15 seconds slower.

I think calling marathon pace runs "tempo" pace is a little misleading, since many of us are so used to "tempo is a feel" not a pace, but every coach has their own vocabulary quirks, and it sounds like the Hansons make it pretty clear how they want you to do these runs.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one! For now I'll continue to trust the process as see how I feel the week before. If training continues to go well then I'll probably just go for it!

And as for "tempo"... yeah, before Hanson's I never would have thought tempo was marathon pace. I think everyone has a different definition but I personally would have put it somewhere between 10k and HM pace. This is just the terminology that Hanson's uses for their long marathon-paced runs though.

Looks like you choose a very bad pro/online coach.

I followed the plan several years ago and the tempos were really hard after the tues night intervals. But i was mostly able to hit pace. However, i think it was too much and 5 weeks out i had a great tempo, took friday off, went out for the easy sat run, felt a twinge in my glute, and ended up not only not being able to to the marathon but ended up with 3 years off of trying to recover from one injury or another. I was broken.

So if i could do it all over again, i would have switched those tempos to friday if i were doing the tues intervals in the evening just to have some more recovery time. Saturday would then have been the off day or 3-4 easy.

Join the Hansons training method group on Facebook. This is the #1 question on there. People can't finish their tempos, so they doubt their ability to do the full 26.2mi.

Those tempo runs are rough.. easier for some than others, but still tough. Hang in there and remember its the result of ALL of the parts of training, not just the tempo runs, that will make race day a success. I think I've had about three good tempo runs in ten years of running... I just do not do well with them.

Why is it normal for people to consider the tempos in this program tough? Tempos should rarely ever be tough. If done properly, they are the kind of workouts you look forward to because they feel so invigorating after. Never a struggle. They should be smooth and off of feel. Something is fundamentally wrong with their training progression or the way tempos are explained if it is truly that difficult for people.

Former Sub 14:00 wrote:

Why is it normal for people to consider the tempos in this program tough? Tempos should rarely ever be tough. If done properly, they are the kind of workouts you look forward to because they feel so invigorating after. Never a struggle. They should be smooth and off of feel. Something is fundamentally wrong with their training progression or the way tempos are explained if it is truly that difficult for people.

Because somewhere along the way, tempos became time trials of a sort -- probably around the time garmin watches arrived.

I used to be teammates with Luke...although I finished behind him! When he ran 2:14 I ran 2:16 (same race).

In Hansons ODP we actually hardly ever did any Marathon Race Pace Runs or "Long Tempos" (Save for the infamous 16-mile Simulator). Sometimes we'd do 8-mile "Tempo runs" with the first 4 at MP and then the second 4-miles 5-sec/mile faster but rarely. Probably more often was the 10-mile cut down runs from 6:00 to sub 5:00 pace.

Then of course a lot of 3 x 3 mile workouts (at MP to 10 sec/mile faster) and 5 x 2 miles etc...and eventually 2 x 6 miles were the bread and butter of the program.

But the world "Tempo" generally would be referring to Lactate Threshold or Threshold and for most people is closer to half marathon race pace (for an elite) to even closer to 10km pace (but not quite Tinman CV style) for most coaches/programs. For everyone Marathon Pace is easier/slower than true Lactate Threshold of course!

That being said the fact that you are getting in long efforts "around marathon pace" on tired legs is the important part. So is doing the faster workouts and the long runs...as well as the consistent (often higher) weekly mileage. Factor in weather conditions ad factor in how aggressive your goal pace is as well.

Luke is a good guy...knows his science and knows how to explain it in laymens terms from what I've seen. (Haven't read his book, but I was there when he was writing part of it!).

I struggled with the tempos the first two build-ups. I had a hard time doing more than 8 miles. I started to look into their half training method as I was trying to make my fall peak race be a half (but I’m still doing a full a few weeks after). For the half method they only have tempos up to 7 miles. So I’ve been incorporating the speed/strength workouts for the marathon and tempos for the half. I’ve liked it a bit better, but I’ll have to wait and see how it reflects on the low key marathon I’m doing in a month.

Former Sub 14:00 wrote:

Why is it normal for people to consider the tempos in this program tough? Tempos should rarely ever be tough. If done properly, they are the kind of workouts you look forward to because they feel so invigorating after. Never a struggle. They should be smooth and off of feel. Something is fundamentally wrong with their training progression or the way tempos are explained if it is truly that difficult for people.

"Why is it normal for people to consider the tempos in this program tough?"......because for 'normal' people this version of a tempo run is tough. And ask 10 people their exact understanding of a tempo run and you'll get at least 9 different versions. I've always considered the strict definition of a tempo run to be a run no longer than 20 minutes paced at 5K race pace plus 15 seconds/mile. Nowadays tempo runs can be whatever your training plan needs them to be.

The whole "cumulative fatigue" principle really manifests itself in the longer marathon pace runs. My fastest 3 fastest times have all been Hansons(2:46/2:50/2:56). Without fail I would have a couple of the longer marathon pace "tempo" workouts that I would blow up on. So yes, it's normal.

I vividly remember only being able to make it 5 miles at marathon pace 6 weeks out from marathon on my first Hanson cycle. It was brutal. I was so worn out and mentally defeated. Come race day I ran faster than that pace for the entire 26.2. I had similar experiences 2 or 3 times per cycle always on the tempo runs.

It just comes with the program. It's an effective program though, and I got much faster doing it.

Did you read any of book before doing the plan? If not, you might want to consider it. They cover this exact question in their book. I can tell you, it gets easier at the end of the plan.

The tempo runs are supposed feel hard and the long runs should feel like the last miles of a marathon.

Luke's use of the word "tempo" isn't the same as the Daniels-type 20 minute tempo at approximately lactate threshold pace, nor does it mean "comfortably hard" for as long as you care to do it. As far as it goes, if ask 10 people how they do intervals, or a long run, or easy runs, or fartlek, you will also get 10 different answers.

He calls it a tempo because it's hard and sustained but he's very specific about the intensity and duration. For most people his tempo workouts are pretty darn difficult. Whether they are beneficial is a fair question but I know people who have done well with the Hanson method.

Thanks for the feedback, Sage! I'm sure the Hanson's elite program has much more variety than the standardized plan from Luke's book, and I am curious about some of those workouts you mentioned.

I've also started listening to Luke's podcast and he has a couple of episodes where he discusses the tempo runs and their relative difficulty. After hearing the feedback here, and hearing Luke talk about them, I think I'm feeling much more comfortable about where I'm at in the program. I'm going to keep trusting the process!

runnER/DR wrote:

The whole "cumulative fatigue" principle really manifests itself in the longer marathon pace runs. My fastest 3 fastest times have all been Hansons(2:46/2:50/2:56). Without fail I would have a couple of the longer marathon pace "tempo" workouts that I would blow up on. So yes, it's normal.

I vividly remember only being able to make it 5 miles at marathon pace 6 weeks out from marathon on my first Hanson cycle. It was brutal. I was so worn out and mentally defeated. Come race day I ran faster than that pace for the entire 26.2. I had similar experiences 2 or 3 times per cycle always on the tempo runs.

It just comes with the program. It's an effective program though, and I got much faster doing it.

Thanks for this. It's really encouraging to hear that you had a strong race after struggling with the tempo runs. All part of the process, I suppose.

One key difference is that when your half marathon PR is close to 60-min (a lot of guys in the program myself included were all sub 65:00 min half guys) then that is almost exactly "Lactate Threshold" or "Tempo" in the scientific sense. So doing 2-3 mile repeats (i.e. 5 x 10-min) with a rest jog between was an actual "Tempo stimulus." And it just so happened we did these workouts quite often at 10 sec/mile faster than goal marathon race pace. For the ODP guys the difference between Marathon Race Pace and Half Marathon race pace was only 10-15sec per mile so that just happened to correspond very nicely. Then of course you were doing Mile repeats at 20sec/mile faster than goal Marathon race pace. So the faster turnover was there, the CV/LT was there, and the long-strength endurance was there as a training stimulus. But what most people need is solid, consistent high mileage and "a lot of high end aerobic work" "around marathon Pace". In the original Hansons "free plans" it was simply labeled as "Speed" or "Strength" or "Tempo" and it definitely wasn't scientific. Personally I've designed such types of runs as "Uptempo" which for a lot of people is Goal Marathon Race pace. For a sub 2:30 marathon guy it could be closer to Current Marathon Race Pace though. It is a notch easier/slower than a true "Tempo" or "Lactate Threshold" type of workout (which would usually be 2-3mile repeats or a straight up 20-25-min effort with a short rest).

Chris60 wrote:

Thanks for the feedback, Sage! I'm sure the Hanson's elite program has much more variety than the standardized plan from Luke's book, and I am curious about some of those workouts you mentioned.

I've also started listening to Luke's podcast and he has a couple of episodes where he discusses the tempo runs and their relative difficulty. After hearing the feedback here, and hearing Luke talk about them, I think I'm feeling much more comfortable about where I'm at in the program. I'm going to keep trusting the process!