Flopped Marathon - HELP!

tough to tell wrote:

Based on your race times and training your goal sounds reasonable, and not only that but you started conservatively. From what you've written it's tough to tell what went wrong unless it was mental. Another marathon this fall seems like an OK idea if that's what you want to do.

I ran the Disney Marathon with a sub-3:00 goal 4 weeks after running 3:02 at Jax back when I was 50. Only slept 3 hours the night before Disney. Don't under estimate the need for proper sleep. I ended up running 3:37 after going out in 6:15. I almost walked but never did. I blamed most of it on a lack of sleep and going out a bit too fast but IMHO the lack of sleep had more to do with it. Calm down.

pfitzrnr wrote:

How many hours a week were you running in this plan?

Remember that running 55-70 mile a week for someone of your speed takes probably the same amount of time as 90-100 miles a week for a fast young male.

I wouldn't be surprised if you were running more hours a week than some pros.

I think it's likely that you overtrained.

This. 55-70 mpw is really high mileage to shoot for a 3:35. If you kept the 4 20-milers in your training, did some more speed (mile repeats a little faster than marathon pace once a week) and did 40-50 mpw, you might feel better.

You might be disappointed with your marathon, but you should be proud of your training - that's dedication!

I agree with others who said 1) stinker races just happen sometimes, especially when it's over 60 degrees and humid, 2) the Pfitz plan is demanding, and its taper may not be steep enough, especially for a newer marathoner, but 3) it looks like your goals were appropriate and your training went really well.

I'd add that I myself don't like adding fast intervals only at the end of a marathon block as Pfitz does. That sort of thing affects different people differently, and you just have to experiment to find out what works for you and what doesn't. But maybe you're like me and that doesn't work for you. (I prefer to keep up some faster intervals throughout a marathon block).

Whether or not you could have salvaged this race by tapering more steeply or just differently, you had a really good training block and are going to continue improving once your body absorbs it. So I'd recommend backing off and letting yourself rest a little before jumping into another race or hard training block. My guess is that if you run mostly easy with lower mileage for a few weeks, then gradually reintroduce some quality, you'll be in PR shape by late Fall at whatever distances you choose to focus on next.

But there's resting up a little to absorb your training in the short term, and then there's the longer term, cumulative effect of repeated training cycles. Even though you had a stinker race, don't let that get you down too much because you did the work that over time is going to lead to better races even than you were hoping for in Erie. Keep your chin up and keep at it, just maybe tinkering with a few little things in your next full marathon training block.

Not trying to start a flame thread here, but I think it's not helpful to tell strangers what pace to train at...whether too slow or too fast. Daily pace (whether recovery, easy, tempo, marathon effort) can differ day to day, as everyone knows. OP was using a HR monitor but would probably be better off just running by feel....ie, to learn what recovery, easy, tempo, interval, marathon effort ..feels.. like and to go from there. This has the benefit of maximizing training (go harder when it feels good to) and avoiding overtraining (taking it easy when the body needs it).

To add to that, I don't think a lot of the people commenting know the Pfitzinger training plans. They call for the medium-long and long runs to be run at MP +10-20%. If you are running a 3:30, your pace for these runs would be approximately 8:45-9:30. The OP said she finished the training successfully (even saying the threshold runs @ 7:40 could have been faster) which makes me think her pacing was fine for this particular training plan.

Pacey wrote:

Not trying to start a flame thread here, but blah blah nonsense ....

Hobby jogger alert! wrote:

Pacey wrote:

Not trying to start a flame thread here, but blah blah nonsense ....

Come at me, bro.

captainkatiedid wrote:

My other question is whether it’s reasonable to try to find a re-do (with a more conservative goal to get my mojo back) next month considering I basically just ran a slower than race-pace half followed by walking another half. The other option is to crush some local shorter races this fall and maybe try again in the spring, or even Erie again next year since I really did love it there. I was hopeful about getting a BQ with a buffer (my time as a 36yo F is 3:35) - but now I feel like a newbie idiot.

Thanks for reading.

-Depressed Marathoner

As others have observed, the marathon can evoke emotional and psychological responses beyond what you find in other, shorter distances. So it is hard to separate out whether the crappy race was simply a fluke, or whether or to what extent emotion and anxiety played into result.

Before jumping into another marathon, you might consider doing (crushing?) a couple of shorter races just to suss out where your fitness is at -- and to determine what a reasonable goal might be for that marathon. Information is power.

captainkatiedid wrote:

... I started training with a 3:35 goal but toward the final 5-6 weeks felt like aiming for 3:30 was a reasonable push based on pacing, HR, and comparing a few different predictor charts/calculators (with a grain of salt)!

...

Unfortunately, I got the feeling as early as 10 miles in that I couldn’t keep it up. I slowed to around 8:20 approaching the half, walk/ran by 15, and then literally just gave up and walked from mile 16 to the finish line.

...

I wouldn't be surprised had I struggled in the later stages or missed my goal even by a large margin - it’s a marathon, and it was a big goal! But running less than 16 miles and clocking in at 4:24 was worse than even my imagined worst case scenario.

...

Running a 3:30 seemed reasonable based on your training. However, it would have been an incredible 16 minute PR, so you needed a more realistic Plan "B" of 3:40 (8:24 mpm), which would have still been a hugh 6 minute PR. That way, when you hit 8:20 mpm (3:38 pace) at the half, you should have been thinking: "I need to keep the pace at 8:28 mpm in the 2nd half to acheive Plan "B" of knocking 6 minutes off my PR and running a 3:40"

Instead you were thinking, there's no way I can run a 7:40 mpm pace in the 2nd half to get back on a 3:30 pace and qualify for Boston. All is lost. There's nothing to run for." Then you slowed down, because you had mentally checked out, because there was nothing to run for.

Looks like you had reasonable training building up to it, and a good sharpening phase followed by a decent taper. I never put much stock in how I feel the week of the race, as there's usually a few days where I feel off.

I think the only gap in your program from what I can see is the absence of MP miles past the 14 you mentioned. That's just over half the distance of the race and I'd say you'd need more. I typically have a block where I do three weeks with a long(ish) run at MP, starting at 20k, then 25 and then 30km. It's a good confidence booster to run longer at MP. I would swap these out for the 10k time trials that you ran. The marathon isn't as much about speed as it is speed endurance. Working on the longer end of the spectrum would help you, imo.

I can't comment on the training plans, pacing, or other variables specific to your fitness or talent levels. However, as others have already noted take a short rest, reboot for a couple weeks, and go hit it again. The training has been done - use it!

Back in the day (just out of college but before internet!) I was all trained up (100mpw+) for the Columbus marathon only to pick up a cold/fever that week, which I tried to combat with a much steeper taper than normal. Result: mostly over the sickness, but began feeling achilles strains and other unexpected biomechanical issues by about mile 10 - dropped at the half to avoid major issues. Tail now firmly between legs, I researched upcoming races (via back of running magazines LOL) and found the Pensicola N.A.S. Marathon 3 weeks out to be appealing. So after a couple easy days I rebooted to full throttle for 10-12 days before tapering/racing again. Result: matched PR, no complaints!

1. Get a script for Xanax or similar and take 1/2 of a pill before races. It sounds like a no-no, like it will take off the edge/adrenaline and make you slow, but for uptight people it actually relaxes you and then you have better form and less sore muscles because they relax. I’ve tried it and run well with it

2. I think your plan was A LOT of miles for a 3:30 goal. I’m shooting for similar and I’m doing around 45 mpw, but I’m running about 20 of those miles a week faster than MGP (in track work and tempos) and my long runs are around 8:30 pace. That said, I haven’t raced yet and don’t know if my plan will work either!

Now that you mention it, I was shocked to notice I lost a couple pounds within the week before the race - after being totally consistent through training and eating plenty. I did feel so much better on race morning - confident and excited!... but considering how bad my stress was in the days leading up, it was probably too late. I guess it really does take a toll.

I SO appreciate your feedback on this. It really hit me - because I totally agree but really needed some validation. It was a hard plan - but yes, it was in no way a total leap from anything I've done and responded well to before, and I've been running consistently for over 15 years - I just started delving into distance and race goals in the last few.

I absolutely loved doing this plan and had never felt stronger or more successful in my running throughout (though I know that sounds ridiculous and embarrassing NOW, haha, but I'm saying it anyway). It was exhilarating, and all my carefully monitored pace/effort/HR data displayed sky-rocketed fitness from my last training cycle in October. I wish you so much luck in your race!

It's tragically funny that ensuring I was being accurate in regard to HR/effort/pace was my total focus of this training cycle. In fact, I got my chest strap fully expecting the more accurate reading to show that I had been overestimating my abilities - but it was actually what pushed me to a faster goal for this marathon. It had nothing to do with wanting to qualify for Boston - it was because I wanted to be sure I was running based on my current fitness. And I did a lot of consistent miles week in and week out at a controlled, low HR and had months of base mileage prior to this cycle. I dunno!

I actually love hearing this - because I absolutely agree that it's what happened. I really needed some validation in regard to how severe of an impact it can have. I should have mentioned I have a history of race-day anxiety and actually threw up before my last/PR marathon in October. I try to work on that aspect but think so much of it can be subconscious, and it culminated differently this time (I felt fantastic at the start line)! It seems the more invested I am in my goals as they get bigger (and Boston came into play), the worse it gets - convenient. Thank you for this feedback! I'll keep at the mental work.

I totally agree! It seemed suspicious to feel so consistently strong and well for so long - and then BOOM, 5 days away everything seemed to crumble. I should have also mentioned that my resting HR during sleep remained consistently in the 40s throughout training and actually hit an all time low during the final taper week - despite my jacked up HR when running. I was absolutely working myself up, like to the point of causing slight headaches. Crimeny :(

WOW - thank you alllllll for reading my little story and taking the time to give such detailed feedback. What a helpful and supportive community of runners sharing experiences and advice. This has really helped me process and get some much needed validation for some things, as well as some constructive criticism as I keep at it! Thank you so much.

Ha! I have joked numerous times about needing to drug myself before races, hahaha - but I definitely hear you and find it so interesting you've had success with a little! That adrenaline has been an issue for me for sure, beyond what I think is normal race-day nervousness, heh.