Democrat control of educational institutions has led to a weak and whiny society.
Democrat control of educational institutions has led to a weak and whiny society.
[quote]Coevett wrote:
[quote]In point of fact wrote:
[quote]Coevett wrote:
"You go from denying any link between cheating for financial gain after retirement and cheating for financial gain before retirement,...."
Nope. Just asking that you prove your assertion that the two are related.
"It's not even as if Keino and Maree's fraud was unrelated to athletics - they both cheated the sport of athletics and other athletes for their own financial gain. You can't see any link there, but you can make a link between Harvey Weinstein and Sebastian Coe???"
Pretty sure Coe is not a serial rapist. In fact, as sure as I am that he did dope, I am more sure he is not a rapist in the league of Weinstein.
"BTW, Bing Crosby was already suspected of drugging and raping dozens of (mainly white) women.
Actually, before the entire media one day launched a full scale smear on Cosby, there had no been a whisper about his behavior known to the public. Unlike Weinstein who even a casual observer of Hollywood knew was assaulting women. It was a running joke at award ceremonies.
"Most of the MeToo accusations only surfaced (at least publicly) during this Twitchhunt hysteria - so the cases are still ongoing. "
What cases? Maybe you have not noticed but NO criminal cases are being brought against any of the dozens of "white" men very credibly accused of decades of sexual assaults. With the exception of a very limited case against Harvey Weinstein -- and even there some charges are being dropped,
"Oh - and you're defending a convicted serial rapist simply because he's black and condemning as guilty 'white' men who have been accused and still to stand trial."
Nope, pointing out the double standard wherein black males are put in trial repeatedly -- with generally accepted rules like statute of limitations thrown out as it was in Cosby's case while these other guys don't even get indicted. You keep talking about having yet to stand trial. These guys will never have to face the Justice System. They are above it. Strauss-Kahn, Wynn, Horowitz, Allen, Toback, Wiesletier, Moonves...and so many more. There are no cases.
Jonathan may need to dig into this to confirm, but it appears that the only indoor or outdoor T&F record older than the Fifth Avenue Mile record is the women's indoor shot put.
NOT that there's any comparison to indoor/outdoor T&F and the Fifth Avenue Mile, but I am thinking we can call this, in the words of Marty Liquori during the 1983 ABC broadcast of the New York City Marathon, "Beamonesque."
Star wrote:
Most competitive field perhaps wrote:
Have you looked at the past winners list? Plenty of folks of similar caliber.
Steve Scott won it in a year where he got a Silver medal in the World Championships and in an Olympic year. I think he was peaking for those more the the Fifth Ave Mile.
John Walker past his prime.
Alan Webb at the end of his best year and a championship year
Nick Willis a bunch of wins but focusing on bigger races.
The main reason the record has lasted so long is that it started with a great athlete in a non championship year and people haven't taken it is seriously since.
The list also includes Peter Elliot, Jose Luis Gonzalez and Bernard Lagat, as well as Craig Mottram and Andrew Baddely.
All of them are sub 3:50 guys.
1984 interview after qualifying in the 1500m:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwB6mhoiJV0
Conclusion of wr 1500m 3:31.24 at 26 in 1983 in Cologne:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV961OyvW60
Running 13:02 but outkicked by Aouita for the wr in 13:00.40 in 1985:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6IuqFsrDcU
3:29.77 in Cologne in 1985, with the leader out in 52.61!! 1:50.35 at 800m with Maree just behind Bile. Maree at about 2:47 at 1200m. He ended up just outside Aouita's 3:29.46 run shortly before. 3rd best at the time.
That's pretty incredible to hold that together.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZdh4KL95Z4
1981 5th avenue Mile:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAnHs6eTYgU
3:47.52 with 53/1:53/2:52, beating Boit, Wessinghage, Cram, and Scott, Coghlann in the field.
As for a fairly late start to his top times, well, he was running in apartheid South Africa and very much limited in what competitions he could do until he became an American citizen. Not too different really in the story from Zola Budd.
As for the corruption conviction around 2010-11, 25 years after his best, I have no idea but you can't rule out political pull and corruption above his pay grade.
But of course at 24, there he was running 3:47.52 on a road mile to beat an incredible field just after running 3:48.83 on the track, 3rd best all-time then, so it is misleading to say the least to say that he just blossomed near 30.
Speedy Maree
Ahead of the now
She's better built that's how
zxcvzxcv wrote:
1984 interview after qualifying in the 1500m:
Good interview, but his view (or justification for defecting to white sport perhaps) about sporting isolation is wrong.
Analogy to Soviet Union does not apply, the Soviets did not have mixed sports, with everything in the country separated....but in SA it was ....
"hey ok fast runner, here is lots of money, come and run with so we can show the world we have integrated sports"
"Can we go for a beer after my shower?"
"What shower....f**k off to your shanty town, and drink your home brew"
The defectors actually held back the anti govt process for a long time...then he comes back, gets a cushy govt position and steals money.
Seriously, if he didn't have the morals to stand with is people in the first case...what did you think will happen?
You may be right about the effect of the defectors on anti-gov't forces, but I don't think so. Golfers who played in Sun City and athletes competing for South Africa at the time were used for propaganda, but how did those who departed the country and competed for other countries do that? In fact, by draining the country of talent, they also drained it of some of its "luster" and undermined apartheid, in my view. Of course, you could say that the country was still showcased by their performance elsewhere and the force of the boycotts undermined, but they were competing for others. Besides, Maree was in a tough position, forced otherwise to lose the best years of his career.
Coevett wrote:
When a former great is convicted of serious fraud, anyone of sound mind should look at his athletics career with scepticism, especially when red flags are present in their progression.
And just like Kip Keino (and his 68 miracle gold), Sydney Maree's progression is almost Aouita like.
In fact, there are very notable parallels with Aouita's career.
Maree 's pb was 3:38 until he ran 3:32 a few day after his 25th birthday.
That appeared to be around his limit until 1983, never really challenging the Brits or Steve Scott until then, but at nearly 30 suddenly moving up another level entirely and becoming a 3:29/3:30 man.
His pb was 3:38 at 24 and he runs a 3:29 weeks before his 30th birthday.
Like Aouita, American based (Aouita spent his winters there) and moves up another level just around the exact time hgh is coming on to the market and being widely abused by American sprinters especially.
I know this will upset the doping apologists here, but anyone who thinks somebody later convicted for embezzling funds intended for young black athletes (just like Keino) would not have cheated for financial gain during his athletics career, is a clown in denial.
At least Maree got punished, although sad to see that one of his records still stands.
this guy coevette has a lot of good points, and then his naysayers have a real point going off on the africans,
maree was a genuine talent, and as for fraud, well in africa, it's nearly impossible to know what's what from afar.
for sure if your're connected, you don't get convicted of anything at all.
i saw rudy chappa get taken out in the ncaa final 5000m, when he was in superior shape to al sal, who went on to run, what was it 13.11. in this race chappa closed in 56 (he was pac 10 800m champ) and maree closed in 52.
so maree was in 1300 shape at that time.
at then end of the day this covette is an arm chair quarter back spouting garbage.
zxcvzcvx wrote:
You may be right about the effect of the defectors on anti-gov't forces, but I don't think so. Golfers who played in Sun City and athletes competing for South Africa at the time were used for propaganda, but how did those who departed the country and competed for other countries do that? In fact, by draining the country of talent, they also drained it of some of its "luster" and undermined apartheid, in my view. Of course, you could say that the country was still showcased by their performance elsewhere and the force of the boycotts undermined, but they were competing for others. Besides, Maree was in a tough position, forced otherwise to lose the best years of his career.
Maybe, I am right because I may have been in same position as him ( not to same level).
Propaganda was used by govt departments, govt media (fully controlled) , showcasing the performances they could produce, showing off that 'blacks were competing against whites', when they only did so at the highest level due to incentives, and letting them go to USA etc continued to showcase what they could do despite sanctions.
Some people toed the line, others sacrificed for the benefit of everyone.
Was that sacrifice effective? Was it worth the outcome?
Well, that is debatable
Bill Cosby not Bing Crosby (I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas fame)
...and , I am only highlighting this....his morality.... because of the comments that 'he' sacrificed, and/or that he was wrongly convicted.
So if it turns out the BroJos are selling our private info without telling us their track times are due to EPO? It may be true but not certainly true.
Coevett wrote:
In point of fact wrote:
[quote]Coevett wrote:
When a former great is convicted of serious fraud, anyone of sound mind should look at his athletics career with scepticism, especially when red flags are present in their progression.
What does one have to do with the other?
In point of fact, when a black celebrity it convicted of anything, one ought to be very suspicious.
Contrast with all the powerful "white" men outed in the Me Too movement. Hundreds of credible accusations of decades of sexual assaults by dozens of men and not one in jail.
Yet they put Cosby on trial twice in order to get him.
If anyone drugged in Maree's era among middle distance runners, it was Seb "toxoplosis" Coe.
Kra kra crazy.
You go from denying any link between cheating for financial gain after retirement and cheating for financial gain before retirement, to #MeToo (which is mostly feminazi witchhunting bull) apparently proving that Seb Coe dopes.
It's not even as if Keino and Maree's fraud was unrelated to athletics - they both cheated the sport of athletics and other athletes for their own financial gain. You can't see any link there, but you can make a link between Harvey Weinstein and Sebastian Coe???
BTW, Bing Crosby was already suspected of drugging and raping dozens of (mainly white) women. Most of the MeToo accusations only surfaced (at least publicly) during this Twitchhunt hysteria - so the cases are still ongoing. At least a dozen white men have committed suicide after #MeToo accusations.
Oh - and you're defending a convicted serial rapist simply because he's black and condemning as guilty 'white' men who have been accused and still to stand trial.
Hi Ciro/VivaLaRepublica. How is life in your exclusive white only middle-class American suburb? Do you have Michael Moore as a neighbour?
Maree's "Turbo-Shuffle" form seems perfectly suited to a road mile. Probably picked up a few seconds just off of that advantage.
From the side, he's pretty much what Drew Hunter aspires for, I think.
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!
2017 World 800 champ Pierre-Ambroise Bosse banned 1 year for whereabouts failures