Road Racing and Training Thread Week Ending September 8 2019

Just adding that I took monday off cause I raced a 10k on sunday (34:22) and was still quite sore and was super busy with work.

So nice to be back at work so I can catch up.

Question for the group.

Chicago will be my first big-city marathon. What has your experience been like pre-race (security, warm up, porto-John stop, time in corral, etc.)? I’m used to essentially walking to the starting line 5 minutes before the gun – with plenty of portos and time to warm-up as needed. Logistics are less of a concern – I’ll be taking the train and walking to the start, but I’m really unsure of how much time to leave for security and if doing a warm-up in the corral is remotely feasible. Plan to dress pretty warm, bringing extra layers that will end up with Goodwill. I’m in corral A, if it helps. Thanks for the input!

Just came up with a new plan for the next few months after getting a serious virus. Feeling good about it--illness can't stop me!

Coyote Montane wrote:

The recent 5K on course that has 3 hills over the last mile on a warm morning (70s in Atlanta) equates to 2:47 for a marathon. Age grading I'd need to run a 2:45:00 or faster, likely not happening especially in Atlanta. But on a Daniels chart it's a 2:47:30. On a fast course like Chicago or one of the big European races that might be possible.

I think most find even Daniels' VDOT equivalency tables to be pretty aggressive for the marathon compared to 5K. Very impressive if you can do it!

And, plugging in OR's goal of sub-17, the Age-Graded equivalencies for Masters are just crazy, as has been pointed out:

Open, 16:59 = 2:40:50

At 40, 16:59 = 2:36:32

At 50, 16:59 = 2:37:58

At 60, 16:59 = 2:39:50

On Daniels tables, 16:59 = 2:42:40.

----------------

Looking back on my 5K versus marathon times at age 23, my marathon was 5 minutes 39 seconds too slow, based on Daniels. And based on current Age-Grading, my marathon was more than 8 minutes too slow!

At age 58, Daniels has my marathon at 5:51 too slow. Age-grading says a whopping 7:54 too slow.

Those time spreads, actually, are amazingly similar at age 23 and 58. The AG scores are similar, too (5K versus marathon):

Age 23 -- 80.7 vs 76.6

Age 58 -- 82.2 vs 78.7

OK, back to work. No work, no pay. Still struggling to break the LRC habit!

3283823 wrote:

Just came up with a new plan for the next few months after getting a serious virus. Feeling good about it--illness can't stop me!

Hope you are feeling better after the dengue. It is a serious disease, so recover well. Have many friends and family that picked it up in India. Mosquito-related diseases are my greatest fear every time I travel there.

RunGuy Midwest wrote:

Question for the group.

Chicago will be my first big-city marathon. What has your experience been like pre-race (security, warm up, porto-John stop, time in corral, etc.)? I’m used to essentially walking to the starting line 5 minutes before the gun – with plenty of portos and time to warm-up as needed. Logistics are less of a concern – I’ll be taking the train and walking to the start, but I’m really unsure of how much time to leave for security and if doing a warm-up in the corral is remotely feasible. Plan to dress pretty warm, bringing extra layers that will end up with Goodwill. I’m in corral A, if it helps. Thanks for the input!

Per AJ and SLO I think you are supposed to get there early for sunrises and long walks on the beach...

RunGuy Midwest wrote:

Question for the group.

Chicago will be my first big-city marathon. What has your experience been like pre-race (security, warm up, porto-John stop, time in corral, etc.)? I’m used to essentially walking to the starting line 5 minutes before the gun – with plenty of portos and time to warm-up as needed. Logistics are less of a concern – I’ll be taking the train and walking to the start, but I’m really unsure of how much time to leave for security and if doing a warm-up in the corral is remotely feasible. Plan to dress pretty warm, bringing extra layers that will end up with Goodwill. I’m in corral A, if it helps. Thanks for the input!

There will be lots of people running in circles to warm up in corral A. It sounds terrible but the corral is pretty big and not that crowded if you get there more than say 30 minutes before the gun. I like to arrive in the corral about 45 min early to warm up and soak it all in. That puts me at bag check (buckingham fountain) about 1 hour out. I’ve never had to wait in line at security or elsewhere. It’s a well run event.

There are toilets all over the place. The ones right outside corral A get crowded so try to go before you get there.

AJ told me what to do last year at Chicago and it went super smooth. My advice is to listen to AJ.

Thinking of 11miles tonight and 8-3 double tomorrow heading into the HM Sunday, too much? Only did 7 yesterday and at 46 for the week (as of end of Thursday). Would like to hit 85-90 this week for Philly full training.

-RS

Great input here, Allen.

As your performances (and mine, and many others) show, there is no comparison between the two--age-grading in the 5k and age-grading in the marathon. Like you, I am always 3 or 4 points "off" between the two, and I am pretty solid across the VDOT tables...which, as you say, are fairly agressive in and of themselves.

Before I forget: that 2:39:50 at age 60 is just absolutely NUTS. It really demosntrates the point.

RunnerSam wrote:

Thinking of 11miles tonight and 8-3 double tomorrow heading into the HM Sunday, too much? Only did 7 yesterday and at 46 for the week (as of end of Thursday). Would like to hit 85-90 this week for Philly full training.

-RS

It’s not a terrible idea. Just run way slower than your legs want to go tomorrow and you should be okay for Sunday.

DietBacon -Welcome back. Was wondering how you were doing. Very short rest on those 1600s!

Jeff - Happy Mid-Autumn Fest to you too!

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

AJ told me what to do last year at Chicago and it went super smooth. My advice is to listen to AJ.

Your welcome.

A couple more thoughts re Chicago.

Definitely check a bag with a jacket, fresh shocks, and comfy trainers. Your feet will thank you as you limp out of Grant Park.

Run the tangents as you see them. Don’t trust the blue line.

Carry a couple gels. If I remember correctly Chicago doesn’t hand any out until late.

If it’s warm, go shirtless and douse yourself with water regularly, preferably anytime you can do so without leaving the tangent. Try not to break stride and lose your rhythm.

GPS will be wonky the first few miles and again around 13 when you go back thru loop.

Resist the temptation to weave at the start. Be smart and go with the flow.

Also, important for all big city marathons, SIT DOWN before the gun as much as you can. You’ll need every ounce of energy those last few miles. Don’t waste any standing around. My warm up jog is very light and short. Maybe 10 min. Warm up the first couple miles of the race.

angryjohnny wrote:

Run the tangents as you see them. Don’t trust the blue line.

Hmmm...he never told me this one though.

Re: Chicago - do not wait until the last minute to get into your corral. They close those things at the exact time that they say they will, with not one second of leeway. And if you do not get in your corral, you have to start at the back of your wave. (I do not know if they are more lenient for the ADP corral - this was my experience in Corral A)

Re: Age grading and different distances. So....the argument is that age-grading is weaker at shorter distances as one ages since the elites tend to move up in distance with age. Since the shorter distances are less competitive as one gets older, the performances used for calculating age-grading aren't of the same caliber as longer distance performances. Hence, age grading mis-represents the decline in speed as one ages.

But..doesn't that argument work the other way? The elites wouldn't be moving up in distance as they aged unless they felt that they would be more competitive at the longer distances....implying a recognition that performance drops off at the shorter distances first.

I just got out of the whole discussion "What ever race I like to run is harder".

The argument can definitely go either way. With the way the age grade system works, more people have run quicker times at the marathon than at the 5k.

Most of the fast times are not from "Elites". Almost every elite runner has quit this crazy sport long before reaching 50.

I don't think the Vdot calculator computes very well with the people that have an over abundance of slow and intermediate muscle fibers. If these people really work their LT they can skew the Vdot system towards doing better in the longer races. I'd say most older people running have more slow and intermediate muscle fibers. (This opinion is just based on years of hearing older people say "I can't recover from speed work, I can only do one workout a week")

My conclusion is if the 5k were easier to get a better age graded score, where are the performances to back it up? The age grade system is pretty accurate in my book. It is based off of what people have done not off of hypotheticals.

darkwave wrote:

Re: Age grading and different distances. So....the argument is that age-grading is weaker at shorter distances as one ages since the elites tend to move up in distance with age. Since the shorter distances are less competitive as one gets older, the performances used for calculating age-grading aren't of the same caliber as longer distance performances. Hence, age grading mis-represents the decline in speed as one ages.

But..doesn't that argument work the other way? The elites wouldn't be moving up in distance as they aged unless they felt that they would be more competitive at the longer distances....implying a recognition that performance drops off at the shorter distances first.

My sense (i.e. speculation) is that both contribute to this effect to some degree, but why moving up should e.g. keep the marathon stronger than the 5k isn’t entirely clear to me. (Are there more “Gebs” moving to the marathon than “El Gs” running the 5k?)

Perhaps the “flattening” of the curves at later ages reflects the lack to true elites still competing that Pappy mentions.

And I’d like to take a better look at the women’s factors, but won’t have a chance this weekend.

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

angryjohnny wrote:

Run the tangents as you see them. Don’t trust the blue line.

Hmmm...he never told me this one though.

Also with the median in the middle of the road at the start in Chicago, I decided starting on the far left side of the corral was the most direct route to the first turn. Not sure if this is right but that's what a map looked like.

So you are saying that you are just a much better miler than a half marathoner?