Cole Sprout 14:38 5K in CO at Liberty Bell

past his prime wrote:

not hating just curious wrote:

Kevin Conlon, just 7 seconds a mile behind Parker Wolfe, is a 4:45 9:48 guy. Seems like this course runs really fast.

Clearly, Kevin Conlon got a whole lot better over the summer. It's rather remarkable how much his race has improved in four months or so. No current 9:48 guy runs 15:09 for something around 5K, even if it is mostly on asphalt and slightly downhill.

Then I would say Conlon is the real story at this meet. After 1000+ days of running he had bests of 2:03 - 4:45 - 9:48 and then 100 days later he's a national level runner. What exactly happened this past summer? Big congrats to him.

Those aren’t the fastest times ever

If you look again at that Milesplit article you’ll notice it is the top ten times run in the last decade. I’ve been to every Liberty Bell in the last 25 years, and I know for a fact Deak, Harkrader, Williams, and Vaughn all ran under 15 or close to it at LB.

Additionally, for the last two years now it is contested on Saturday morning as opposed to Friday afternoon as it had been forever. Much cooler in the a.m., obviously.

Also, Vaughn won the Big 12 5,000 title in Boulder when he was a senior at CU. If I recall, I believe he ran around 14:10 that day. So that has to rank up there as one of, if not the fastest 5ks on Colorado soil.

I measured it, taking the path that cuts off as much distance as possible. The course is not short... in fact it is a couple meters long.

https://imgur.com/a/tPLdSX6

Liberty Bell is a fast course, but I don’t think it is short as I ran and biked it a number of times over the years (I lived a mile away). The layout of the course makes it fast. First mile is slightly uphill and on pavement. The second is flat on cinder and the final mile is gradual downhill on asphalt. The last turn is slight uphill as you come off of Lee Gulch to the finish. It has been the same course pretty much forever and has little room for error. The old Kent course is similar but runs about a minute slower due to less pavement and more grass.

joedirt wrote:

Liberty Bell is a fast course, but I don’t think it is short as I ran and biked it a number of times over the years (I lived a mile away). The layout of the course makes it fast. First mile is slightly uphill and on pavement. The second is flat on cinder and the final mile is gradual downhill on asphalt. The last turn is slight uphill as you come off of Lee Gulch to the finish. It has been the same course pretty much forever and has little room for error. The old Kent course is similar but runs about a minute slower due to less pavement and more grass.

+1. Agree. ^This.

This is a ballpark estimate, not an accurate measurement. Nobody would certify a course based on this map.

All those little waypoints you have along the way--if they're not nice and centered in the optimal path the competitors would run (and they aren't if done by hand), then you've likely overestimated the distance by a little. There are other little ways a measurement done by a mapping program such as this can be off. Close, perhaps, but off.

I think it's fair to say from your map that the course isn't wildly off. But 50 meters off one way or the other could easily be in excess of 10 seconds. That would be worth knowing.

All that said, probably the overwhelming majority of high school cross country courses in the nation are within +/- 75 or 100 meters of 5000 meters. So, it may well be that the Liberty Bell course is within the default "margin of error." It's just that people start getting increasingly curious when the times turn up as good as they did on Saturday.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the asphalt and slightly downhill nature of the courses are bigger factors than the distance, though I'd like to see a real measurement of the distance. You probably need an enormous asterisk to call these cross country times, since no commonly accepted definition of a cross country course includes a circuit than is majority concrete/asphalt. As someone already said, short of certified courses, the only records you have in cross country* are course records.

He won by 9 seconds. Not that great of a performance.

Definitely a short course

Rhoojo wrote:

He won by 9 seconds. Not that great of a performance.

You don't appreciate how competitive distance running in Colorado is nowadays.

As a side note, the area right around the Liberty Bell meet is one of the best urban places to run and bike anywhere. You've got well maintained dirt / cinder trails all over the place (Highline Canal, Lee Gulch, South Platte Park (which has wood chip trails as well), and the Mineral Avenue Trail (which is perfect for hill repeats), and you have bike access to the highline canal, the C-470 trail, Platte River Trail, through Chatfield State Park and up into the Colorado Trail and numerous trails going over the hogback like Deer Creek Canyon, Dakota Ridge, etc. You pay a small amount to South Suburban on your property taxes, but it is worth it to have all that access right outside your door and increases the value of your home.

I agree thoroughly on that side note since I have trained in that area for a few years and recently purchased property there. Just curious though, what do you mean by the mineral avenue trail? Are you talking about the small high line extension from jacka$$ hill road to peninsula rd?

I wheeled the course a number of years ago, it is 80m short. It is also net downhill and pretty much entirely hard surface. The times are more in line with a typical road 5k than than 5k xc.

peaking too soon

jessen jeffla wrote:

I wheeled the course a number of years ago, it is 80m short. It is also net downhill and pretty much entirely hard surface. The times are more in line with a typical road 5k than than 5k xc.

well your like wrong and stuff.....i used google earth and did the line, i came up with 5,058.30m or 3.14 miles.

first mile is all asphalt

1.38 miles on the canal

last .76 on asphalt, so its approx 50/50 dirt/asphalt

race start elevation is approx 5520, first half mile is a drop to 5471, 49ft, then you regain 30 ft in 240 meters at approx .65 miles in.

you go up another 20ft from the asphalt to the canal and 20ft on the canal is the first mile. from 1 mile to 2.36 miles the canal is very very flat, then you exit the canal and back on to the suburban roads. once back on the black top you drop 82 ft in .69 of a mile or 1110.45 meters, then you take a sharp left and go up 23ft in 160.9m to the finish.

i ran there twice in hs, and yes it was always my PR it is not short, some people didnt PR there most did...i will tell you this though...

going to liberty bell was one of those things you knew it was going to be HUGE, way bigger than state, 2A-5A, it was a super exciting atmosphere. by far the biggest meet i have ever been to in my hs and college careers. everyone takes off like possessed madmen and you have no choice, its a two lane road that is packed single file, shoulder to shoulder and rows and rows deep. i was 3A and thankfully our team was ranked in the top 5 so we were in the first row. i mean how many HS races do you know that takes off 4:40s at altitude? both years i was there it was the same, 3A-5A, a giant pack of morans hitting 4:40 for the first mile. the place has this history of being fast and giant crowds of runners and spectators. i mean tell me LRers, how many races have you done where there are people LINED up the whole 5k? that last 1000m where you are going down hilll through the suburbs there was people cheering, and spraying their hoses on both sides of the street to spray the runners, holy hell it was refreshing.

like i said some people didnt PR, i think cause they were cowards to go with the heard of madmen, i got caught up into it and suffered the most pain i ever experienced in hs cross. i wanted to slow down cause i was in so much pain but i was surrounded by 10 people all around me. could i have ran better if my dumba$$ didnt hit 5 flat for the first mile? oh most definitely, but i was like 100th place!

if you dont believe me ask people who actually have run there...its like the colorado equivalent of say the stanford 10k, or the monaco 1500m for some...you know its fast and you know you will be pushed and pulled faster than you ever thought possible. and just saying my PR was 17:20 there, and ran 17:48 at state on the "slow" kent denver course, so i give it 20 seconds fast for the asphalt and atmosphere

LB’er wrote:

Also, Vaughn won the Big 12 5,000 title in Boulder when he was a senior at CU. If I recall, I believe he ran around 14:10 that day. So that has to rank up there as one of, if not the fastest 5ks on Colorado soil.

No doubt, but track is different from the roads and XC.

I have a question, why is "one of Colorado's most historic XC courses" not actually a XC course at all? I've run road races with more of the course not on asphalt than this course. Good lord, makes me happy I got to run XC in HS where I did, who knew Colorado can't find courses that are actually on grass?

well the problem with denver is its one giant nasty concrete/asphalt sh*tshow....the state course that i ran on at kent denver was one of the best grass courses around for denver, and it had two sections that sucked, a concrete side walk for maybe 200m? and then at the end you had like 300m of sh*tty asphalt....the biggest problem on that course was the start and finish was DEEP wet tall grass, so spikes was a mush, then dirt for the rest and the two sh*tty sections. after the concrete part you hit this single width dirt path that went through lots of nasty weeds, not good to breath that sh*t in and all the dust.

by far the worst course was in woodland park, that colorado springs christian used.....i mean winning times were high 18's for guys who ran 15:40s....what a sh*tty place to run, but it was all dirt in a pine forest if you really want that kinda sh*t.

Your entire post doesn't change that's its net downhill and short 80m on a wheel calibrated on the CU track. There's no possible way to hit the tangents on Google earth like someone running solo with nothing impeding them. Like another poster said, if anything the GPS or Google earth will add distance.

It is a big meet, fast, and fun. Big performance by sprout. No one is debating those points. But we should call it like is, similar to when he cut in early in his sub 9 3200 last spring.