back to back tempo runs during marathon training

plenty of time to bump

overtrainer wrote:

If I do 10x1000 @ 10k pace on tuesday, then a 3 miler at 15k pace on wednesday

That's not back-to-back tempo runs.

overtrainer wrote:

am I getting enough recovery

You tell us if you feel recovered. How the f**k are we supposed to know from the internet?

overtrainer wrote:

is this a smart way to build my aerobic threshold?

Sure.

I believe Marty Heihr (sp?) does two quality session two days in a row on weekends, so should be fine if you do two workouts in two days. As long as you recover appropriately.

Speaker of hard truths (the real 1) wrote:

overtrainer wrote:

If I do 10x1000 @ 10k pace on tuesday, then a 3 miler at 15k pace on wednesday

That's not back-to-back tempo runs.

overtrainer wrote:

am I getting enough recovery

You tell us if you feel recovered. How the f**k are we supposed to know from the internet?

overtrainer wrote:

is this a smart way to build my aerobic threshold?

Sure.

damn you sound like a loser lol. I'm pretty tired today, but if I get the 3 miler in I get to run easy on thursday and friday

Let us all know how that works out for you, but the idea of doing it isn't completely foreign. In Daniels training plans he some back-to-back workout days in Phase III. Not sure what his rational is. In cycling, in the Time Crunched Cycling Training book, Carmichael has back-to-back workout days in the mid-to-late stages of his plans, with the thought that the two workouts act as a block.

It's based on the theory of cumulative fatigue, which is supposed to build running strength.

I feel like this would destroy me, but Renato Canova calls for a few "Special Blocks" during marathon training, which might call for a tempo in the morning and then fartlek or intervals in the afternoon. Then again, he also calls for extended recovery periods, so this may be the only workout day of the week, and these workout days are only used a few times during the buildup.

So, there's plenty of precedent for this type of thing, as long as you get adequate recovery from it.

The Mooch wrote:

It's based on the theory of cumulative fatigue, which is supposed to build running strength.

That might be someone's rationale but not Daniels'.

This would be interesting to tie in with whether doubles are effective or not.

What is more useful?

1. A 6 miler at tempo effort, next day easy running

or

2. A 4 miler at tempo effort, next day 4 miler at tempo effort.

The 1st option seems harder, but the 2nd option gives you two extra miles at tempo pace a week.

Bone Saw wrote:

This would be interesting to tie in with whether doubles are effective or not.

What is more useful?

1. A 6 miler at tempo effort, next day easy running

or

2. A 4 miler at tempo effort, next day 4 miler at tempo effort.

The 1st option seems harder, but the 2nd option gives you two extra miles at tempo pace a week.

For me the 6 miler at tempo effort wouldn't worth much. It would have to be slower than threshold pace and I don't get as much out of those. Also, if I do a 4 mile tempo there's sure as hell no need for me to do another one the next day.

Back to back workouts are fine but you need back to back recovery days.

So Thursday and Friday should be easy days.

overtrainer wrote:

Speaker of hard truths (the real 1) wrote:

That's not back-to-back tempo runs.

You tell us if you feel recovered. How the f**k are we supposed to know from the internet?

Sure.

damn you sound like a loser lol. I'm pretty tired today, but if I get the 3 miler in I get to run easy on thursday and friday

Sounds like you don't know what good simple advice is. Should you do back to back workouts? Depends. I've done multiple days in a row where I ran close to marathon pace, if I felt good. So if you feel good, sure go ahead and do two tempos in a row.

Keep it Simple Stupid wrote:

Sounds like you don't know what good simple advice is. Should you do back to back workouts? Depends. I've done multiple days in a row where I ran close to marathon pace, if I felt good. So if you feel good, sure go ahead and do two tempos in a row.

Whoa this dude ran multiple days at marathon pace, incredible!!

so the first week I made this thread i was too tired for the 2nd tempo.

This week, I crushed both days. Crushed as in I hit good tempos paces.

Here are my buildup weeks will look like until the Tallahassee marathon in february.

Sunday- Easy 9

Monday - Easy 9

Tuesday - am 30min; pm 2wu, 6k of intervals at 10k pace; 2cd.

Wednesday- am weights; pm 2wu, 8k tempo at 15k pace; 2cd.

Thursday - Easy 9

Friday - Easy 9

Saturday - Long Run 15-22 miles. Every other week a 5k-20k race, with longer wu and cd for the miles.

I doubled today and did two 4 mile tempos at close to HM pace. Never done that before but it’s basically the same idea you’re going for. I just wouldn’t do it more than a few times in a cycle and would allow for plenty of recovery after. But the more experience I get with the marathon the more I see the value in running workouts on tired (or at least not fresh) legs.

Silky Johnson wrote:

I doubled today and did two 4 mile tempos at close to HM pace. Never done that before but it’s basically the same idea you’re going for. I just wouldn’t do it more than a few times in a cycle and would allow for plenty of recovery after. But the more experience I get with the marathon the more I see the value in running workouts on tired (or at least not fresh) legs.

Wait so you doubled as in 4 tempo in am, 4 tempo in pm?

I think that's great. But am more interested in making 2 days into one block of tempo runs.

____

Anyone know nay interesting literature out there on breaking the weeks into blocks instead of days?

I'm no exercise scientist but am very intrigued by the thought of viewing the week as 3.5 blocks rather than 7 days.

1 block (2 days) - easy, 1 block - hard, 1 block- easy or medium, .5 block hard or medium

Since when is an interval workout of 10x1000 a tempo run?

Yeah, I didn’t really plan on it but that’s just how the day worked out. The block idea you have us just another way to structure workouts and would probably be most applicable to marathons and ultras where you need to be able to withstand a beating and keep going on tired legs. I don’t see anything wrong with doing it sometimes. But again you have to make sure you’re recovering and you don’t go too far into the well on either day.

But back to back harder days has been done before. I know Daniels talked about it.

One of the best female 5k runners did 3 hard workouts after one another. Think it was monday intervals, tuesday tempo, wednesday uphill

If you can run normally on Thursday and Friday it wasn't too much. If you struggle on both days, i.e., need to run much slower or shorter than normal then it probably was too much. The issue is not what numbers or some training plan say is too much but whether you are recovering.