That's not how it works wrote:
Your IAAF page doesn't have an asterisk saying "her PB is 4:03 but she was actually in 4:01 high shape if only it were less humid."
Dude, this isn't the IAAF. It's LRC. You know, where "dreams become reality."
That's not how it works wrote:
Your IAAF page doesn't have an asterisk saying "her PB is 4:03 but she was actually in 4:01 high shape if only it were less humid."
Dude, this isn't the IAAF. It's LRC. You know, where "dreams become reality."
Oh yeah, forgot the women's 1500m ? I was mainly thinking of the men's. Top seed time was 3:34, winning time was 3:41. Big dropoff.
soccerxc wrote:
Oh yeah, forgot the women's 1500m ? I was mainly thinking of the men's. Top seed time was 3:34, winning time was 3:41. Big dropoff.
I must need new glasses! When I look at this year's start list, the top seed I see is Crawford Graham, at 3:38.86.
http://results.tfmeetpro.com/TimingInccom/3rd_Annual_Ed_Murphey_Classic/start_list_13.htmlAs per here, the official website, it's a 3:34
The women ran well. The men closed well, they just didn't get out fast enough. Good times from the #bossladies. And it's not the breathing that is difficult (humid air is actually less dense than dry air), it is the thermoregulation that is difficult. The high humidity basically means you sweat and don't cool off the same as you would at altitude which feels awkward.
soccerxc wrote:
As per here, the official website, it's a 3:34
That page has two columns. The left-hand column gives the runner's all time PB, and the year in which he ran it. The right-hand column gives the runner's season's best, which is the seed time.
The page you link to is confusing, because both columns are labelled "PB." The page I used (which is also on the official website) is clearer because it clearly lists the seed-time.
I have seen enough impressive runs in these sort of conditions to say that heat and humidity has a relatively negligible impact on some acclimated athletes in the mile and below. It depends on the person obviously but a lot of well trained athletes can still run really fast in this weather.
The problem comes when you race distances 3K+. Running longer endurance races is miserable in Memphis during the Summer and can impact times by anywhere from 15 seconds to a minute in a 5K race. The effect is not linear either. A 10K on the track in these sort of conditions could easily be slower for accomplished runners than a 10K on the track raced at 5000 feet altitude in good conditions. An August marathon in Memphis could very well be slower on average than a marathon with similar terrain run at 7000 feet altitude. In these cases, we are talking 10 or even 15 minutes slower for an average sub 3 hour marathoner than a 45 F degree race.
As for living in these conditions, it is pretty miserable. I think that a highly talented runner without great mental toughness would fare far better in California than here. I would not be surprised if some guys with ~9:10 capability are not breaking 10 in the 3200 in Memphis due in significant part to the tough conditions. You have to be tough and talented to be a top runner in the South. However, there are guys who come from the South who have run very fast. Memphis itself has had a couple guys run near 4:10 for the mile in Highschool and had multiple Footlocker national qualifiers in XC. So, it is possible to run very fast in Memphis, but requires a level of mental toughness not necessary in other places. I would not suggest using living here as an excuse for not performing well. It is very possible to do with some effort.
I'm definitely not excusing my performances due to the climate. It's just cool to see all these people from Colorado and Oregon and these running Meccas struggle when they come here. It's sort of a pride thing, like we run all the time in this horrible weather, and others can't replicate their times when they come here.
soccerxc wrote:
I'm definitely not excusing my performances due to the climate. It's just cool to see all these people from Colorado and Oregon and these running Meccas struggle when they come here. It's sort of a pride thing, like we run all the time in this horrible weather, and others can't replicate their times when they come here.
I mean I can fairly confidently say that very few of them would be professional runners if they lived in Memphis from birth. This place has a way of breaking people. There is so many guys I have seen with Prs around 16:00 living here who hardly even run anymore. On the flip side of that, I think you can go farther here in terms of competing well in local races with less talent and more mental toughness than other places. But yeah, you are not wrong. People have no idea how hard it is running here versus other places. It definitely requires some extra toughness.
CRR wrote:
People have no idea how hard it is running here versus other places. It definitely requires some extra toughness.
Yet Memphis has a thriving hobbyjogger (I don't mean that negatively) scene, really remarkable for the size of the city. Why?
I was at the 5 miler this morning and it was absolutely brutal, easily the hardest race of my hobbyjogger life.
I don't have any experience with serious competitive running firsthand, but it's interesting how big causal running is in Memphis versus how little serious talent we have.
I'm totally with you on how brutal it is here, and I totally buy that it's not an ideal place for a serious runner, but I'd just think that club level runners wouldn't have nearly the mental toughness that serious athletes would, and yet club running is huge here, even in the summer.
901 HJer wrote:
CRR wrote:
People have no idea how hard it is running here versus other places. It definitely requires some extra toughness.
Yet Memphis has a thriving hobbyjogger (I don't mean that negatively) scene, really remarkable for the size of the city. Why?
I was at the 5 miler this morning and it was absolutely brutal, easily the hardest race of my hobbyjogger life.
I don't have any experience with serious competitive running firsthand, but it's interesting how big causal running is in Memphis versus how little serious talent we have.
I'm totally with you on how brutal it is here, and I totally buy that it's not an ideal place for a serious runner, but I'd just think that club level runners wouldn't have nearly the mental toughness that serious athletes would, and yet club running is huge here, even in the summer.
From what I understand, Memphis used to actually be quite elitist in the 1990s and early 2000s. We had some amazing runners during those times, however participation was far, far lower than it is now. I think that there has been a massive shift towards a more egalitarian viewpoint among Memphis runners. There is an attitude among many that “if you run, no matter how fast, you’re a runner.” Most people run with their friends and never push their limits. It is a social occasion rather than a competitive event for 90% of Memphis runners. Most of the top runners in Memphis except for a few of the Breakaway employees train alone in large part. There is not a massive incentive or push to be better in this community right now. Many quit because the effort required to be good is not worth the little recognition many receive for it.
Further, most people in Memphis do not run many hill workouts and are very low mileage overall. The few of us who run high mileage and run hills generally win races here fairly easily. There is almost no one I personally know living here running doubles besides myself. Many people consider running 5 days a week a lot. 40 miles a week is considered “high mileage.” People would not believe me if I told them I ran almost 90 miles a week fairly consistently. They would consider it physically impossible. In reality, there are a lot of collegiate and post collegiate guys who hit those numbers.
I will tell you that I have been active in the Knoxville running community and I can say that they are very different in their attitude. Runners care about how fast they run there. The community is extremely closely knit and sub elite and former sub elite runners are very close and keep in contact. Lots of college guys randomly show up to small 5ks and run 15:20s. They have guys and girls who are in Olympic Trials Qualifying range for the marathon. Most people know who the fast guys are. Bobby Holcombe, who coaches at Knoxville Endurance and Webb High School, has coached multiple runners who have qualified for Footlocker as well as low 2:20s guys in the marathon. They have far more hills there which definitely helps in athletic endurance performance. There are a handful of runners hitting over a 100 miles a week pretty regularly. It is an entirely different atmosphere that very much encourages good running and rewards and recognizes people for it.
You really have to get out of Memphis to see everything wrong with the competitive Memphis running community. I should say though that I really do appreciate what some coaches do around here to promote running to the masses. Not everyone wants to be as fast as possible and destroy themselves in the pursuit of excellence. For some, it is about living a healthier lifestyle. Memphis coaches are absolutely phenomenal at promoting the social aspect of running. They appeal to people who otherwise would not run at all. Memphis Youth Athletics gets hundreds of kids out running. There are constant social events for the average jogger. Highschool has a lot of coaches who are passionate about getting kids out for the team and making it fun for them. This is why you see the vibrant community we have today- the exceptional efforts of coaches who are very much in touch with what it socially popular nowadays.
For the very few of us who care solely about how fast we run and not the social component, though, it is a bit bleak. Gone are the Gibson days of insane miles, ridiculous workouts, and pure mental toughness that gets runners to the top level. This is what is missing in Memphis runners- a true mental grit to destroy oneself in the pursuit of success. That’s what makes great runners. If Memphis coaches truly want to coach state championship teams again, they have to understand that caution won’t get them there. But again, I really do applaud them for the phenomenal job they’ve done making running popular for many. Unfortunately, the cost of it has been paid by the true competitive runner.
Well said. The best hill work we have is the SF Gravel Grinder. Arlington, Houston, CBHS, and MUS occasionally are the few serious distance programs around, and even they aren't exactly cleaning up NXR. Past that, it's a lot of people just participating and each school will have maybe one or two okay to good runners. In my 2A region meet last year, we had 1 guy under 17, and that's it. As you said, there just seems to be a lax, almost "if you run, you've already won" attitude in HS and the local adult scene. At least for my HS team, I'm the only one doing extra mileage regularly outside of practice. There just seems to be not much drive or ambition to get better around here, but it is what it is. I guess I gotta get to the top my region first before I can talk.
Great posts, thanks.
Hopefully I'll live to see a resurgence at some point. I'm definitely not going to be competitive ever but I don't agree with the "if you run, you've already won" thing either, even in the casual fitness community, it should be about striving for self improvement.
Would love to see some depth in the local top guys. I think #2 in the mrtc 5 mile today was a solid 3 minutes behind Rayder.
901 HJer wrote:
Great posts, thanks.
Hopefully I'll live to see a resurgence at some point. I'm definitely not going to be competitive ever but I don't agree with the "if you run, you've already won" thing either, even in the casual fitness community, it should be about striving for self improvement.
Would love to see some depth in the local top guys. I think #2 in the mrtc 5 mile today was a solid 3 minutes behind Rayder.
To be fair, most of the other top guys skipped today and will probably run the 2nd one. I would not be surprised if some of them got close to the 27:27 time in better conditions in a couple weeks. It definitely was not the fastest day as you know. I probably won’t run another MRTC race until the 2nd 10K. Hopefully a low or even sub 33 10K is in the cards there. I think that would pull ahead and seal the win on the series.
Impressive close by Helen S! Blasted out of fifth place and dropped everyone else by 1.5 sec or more.
Can Letsrun please learn how to spell "Schlachtenhaufen"? Ok? Its not that hard. Also fun fact: it means pile (haufen) of butchering (schlachten) in German. And its not that hard to remember a fucking "ch" really.
runningchick wrote:
Can Letsrun please learn how to spell "Schlachtenhaufen"? Ok? Its not that hard. Also fun fact: it means pile (haufen) of butchering (schlachten) in German. And its not that hard to remember a fucking "ch" really.
Whoa geez. Settle down there killer.
Is it that time of the month again?
That's not how it works wrote:
Hmm it was bad wrote:
Conditions were brutal. Major humidity. High 80s. They PRd but give them a couple more seconds with better conditions and better pacing. The top 4 women can all run under 4:02 right now.
That's a pretty bold claim. Humidity sucks, but the closer you get to four, the harder every gain gets. Also "can all run sub 4:02" doesnt mean jack. You're pretty much always in better shape than your PB unless you ran the perfect race, in perfevt conditions, got the best sleep, perfect nutrition in the run up etc. Your IAAF page doesn't have an asterisk saying "her PB is 4:03 but she was actually in 4:01 high shape if only it were less humid."
Jessica Hull ran 4:06 in 96 degrees then ran 4:02 weeks later at Pre. Sinclaire who beat her ran 4:05.98, took 5 days off, and still managed to come back and get 4th at USA's behind 2 3:57 women in a semi-tactical race. It's pretty clear they could have run at least 2 seconds faster in Memphis. The temp was in the mid-80's, but the humidity and dew points were miserable. Probably similar to Austin's conditions.
@CRR - When did you run for Gibson?
That's not how it works wrote:
the faster you go the harder the gains get.
The gap 4:04 to 4:03 is smaller than 4:03 to 4:02 and so on.