New book about FM

A new book about Frank Meza has been published? Did it explain how he was able to cheat all those years and even fool his family?

How is it "picking facts favorable to them" to cite what every single kid who ran NXN did after FM. And, as I said, it appears that 89% ran multi-years in college since the 89% figure does not include two who were listed as one year or did triathlons? Can you cite any other school that has such a high percentage who went on to run in college? A single one? Clearly their FM years gave them a love for running.

As for improving in college, you overlook one obvious fact. Almost all kids from other teams have far more room for improvement in college than FM kids since they have been far less committed in high school.

And if Bill Aris is critical of college coaches, I understand. I do so based on my own college experience and that of too many of the kids I coached.

Can't speak for the girls but I think the majority of male FM grads who ran D1 had significant PRs in college. I don't think the entire program can be defended by that stat, but when FM comes up I think people drift too far into "burnout science" that isn't based in reality.

As for improving in college, you overlook one obvious fact. Almost all kids from other teams have far more room for improvement in college than FM kids since they have been far less committed in high school.

I'm not going to get into the weeds of the F-M debate. You all have already done that.

But the above quote is nothing more than complete and total BS. Every other school's kids are "far less committed" than F-M's? Is that actually an attempt at a serious statement? It's not only wrong. It's arrogant, insulting, petty, and obnoxious.

I’m not sure of the exact percentage but I know CBA sends roughly 75% or so to run in college. I know some may say they burn guys out too, but over the last 10 years guys like Mazz, Kelly, Gorman, Boyle, and Ferro have contributed on a national level for some pretty high level schools.

va coach wrote:

As for improving in college, you overlook one obvious fact. Almost all kids from other teams have far more room for improvement in college than FM kids since they have been far less committed in high school.

I'm not going to get into the weeds of the F-M debate. You all have already done that.

But the above quote is nothing more than complete and total BS. Every other school's kids are "far less committed" than F-M's? Is that actually an attempt at a serious statement? It's not only wrong. It's arrogant, insulting, petty, and obnoxious.

I am genuinely. puzzled by both the substance of your reply and your anger. If other teams train and live with the same commitment why are they achieving far inferior results. What is your explanation for why these kids from a Syracuse suburb have consistently won at NXN? They aren't Kenyans living for generations at altitude in the Rift Valley. They are ordinary American kids who either win, or nearly do so, year after year, despite the efforts of thousands of other high school teams. What is "arrogant, insulting, petty, and obnoxious" about drawing what seems to be the only rational explanation for their success?

NJ Observer wrote:

I’m not sure of the exact percentage but I know CBA sends roughly 75% or so to run in college. I know some may say they burn guys out too, but over the last 10 years guys like Mazz, Kelly, Gorman, Boyle, and Ferro have contributed on a national level for some pretty high level schools.

Good to hear! While 75% is not 89%, it is a very high percentage. To me it says the CBA coaches, like Bill Aris, are doing something really right. Their kids are remarkably successful yet clearly find something satisfying, even enjoyable, in the effort itself.

It reminds me of what I told parents at our annual post-season awards: I loved the fact that we had a lot of success at State (nothing like FM or CBA, of course). I was/am a very competitive guy. But if I didn't enjoy the other 99% of the time - at practices and meets - I never would have continued for 32 years.

Not a huge Aris fan myself (program always seemed a little too serious for me, but I guess it’s a good thing to have kids focused/working hard on something).

I’ll defend him against the whole burnout thing though. I think it’s bs. My guess is a good percentage of kids in the country get worse in college (Not just FM), due to several factors including:

-more distractions (school work, partying, etc.)

-losing interest (for some people, after running all year round for several years, it gets boring)

-and, particularly in FMs case, worse coaching/training. I’d argue that a lot of FMs top kids wouldn’t have sniffed their times at most other high schools, and never even would’ve had the chance to run at major D1 programs. A lot FMs kids didn’t seem naturally gifted at running to me, but worked hard and trained smart, which got them to be a top team

I didn't read it yet but I noticed it already, considering some comments here, I suppose it's worth reading. I am really interested in books and I always want to watch or read other people opinions and what they do/think in some situations. In my opinion is a growth, as you grow when you discover new things. I am considering to buy it and I will make an essay from it using this

https://writemyessayonline.com/do-my-assignment.html

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I have been reading and writing essays for some time now and it's a good technique to develop yourself and the techniques (which you need to try in practical way too).

I agree with much of this. The system/process and the psychology are what have made FM amazing. So those kids reach more of their (a higher percentage of) potential in hs. In college, they don't have the same system/process. They don't have the same leadership from within the team or above the team. The coaching and team environments are absolutely foreign to what they have experienced in hs. Everything they used to build their success, physically, mentally, environmentally, socially, etc. is gone in college. Running isn't just running. It is far more complex than that.

Most college coaches, especially in the P5 world, are very mediocre. When you automatically get the top kids in the country year after recruiting year because of your school name, you don't have to be a great coach to have a fast team. There is no incentive to change either. If runners come in and don't perform, someone from the next recruiting class will take their place. Most college coaches don't show much care for their athletes personally either. Based on the reading, most college coaches are around/interacting with their athletes less than 10% of what Aris does with his FM athletes. Imagine getting 90% less attention and care from your coach after 4-years (formative years) of complete attention in high school (and more at FM since they often join the team in 7th or 8th grade).

Most team environments in college, especially in the P5 world, are very individual. There is very little accountability. You do it primarily for yourself, which is the exact and complete opposite of why you do it at FM.

If FM runners don't improve much or at all at the collegiate level (and I have no idea if they do or not), that really should be no surprise. The entire system that brought out a higher percentage of their maximum ability in hs is gone. It would be very reasonable to expect the improvement to decline or stop. The pressure would actually go from not eating crap and to doing everything right, to having fun and not making others feel bad. From the norm being extreme commitment to no real structure at all.

There is something amazing about being part of a group that is completely unified in pursuit of rare excellence. It is worth it. A person will usually rise much higher for others than for themselves. That goes away in most collegiate programs. Further, the closer to your maximum the smaller the improvement margins anyway. And I agree with several on here who have said that most kids do not improve in college. That is the norm.

I don't think you can simply say that they are "burnt out" from their hs training and system. The "burn out" or less than expected performances would be just as reasonably attributed to a new system that is disappointing and lacks motivation, accountability, team spirit and sacrifice, and coaching that is just business, rather than coaching that, albeit could be labeled harsh and consumed, both seems to truly care and is about building people through the act of running. Everything they know and everything that has contributed to their success is gone. They have to reinvent themselves or fade off. The whole purpose and process of running is no longer there to support them.

To that end, the one criticism I would then have (I've read more than half the book so far), and it is actually a small criticism as I don't know it's a reasonable expectation, would be that Aris's grand plan was to teach Stotan ideals, to use the sport of running to teach and establish those ideals in their total lives and all around thinking, and to see what the results could be. While the results within the program athletically speak for themselves, it would seem (not unreasonably) that the Stotan ideals mostly remained with the FM program when the runners left to go out into the real world. The Stotan ideals seem to work primarily in the insulated, saturated and fully accountability environment of the FM program, and are not sustained in a significant way as individuals outside of that bubble. Thus, maybe the experiment is a failure, if the goal was long term transformation of thinking and lifestyle.

My last thought is, I think really Aris benefit's from implementing this program and philosophy near the year 2000. Based on generational changes and our current culture I think if he were to try to start this same system and style of coaching today, from scratch, he would be obliterated and run out of town as an egotistical, abusive, evil coach. Not saying any of that is true (I don't believe it is), but it doesn't have to be these days. I've seen successful and caring coaches expect far less and act far less demanding get blasted in recent years. He is able to continue (for now) because he already established this culture at a time when it would still be accepted, then delivered on incredible results that everyone wants a part of. I would strongly advise any coaches out there who would consider implementing a program very similar to Aris (and his style...yelling, carrying a big stick, calling kids out in public, the whole extreme tough love style) to not do it. Unless you are ok being run out of coaching, because that is the most likely outcome. It just doesn't work in this culture at this time.

Thus, to me this is an interesting book about a pretty cool philosophy and a very interesting personality that works in one specific environment from a specific time and is unlikely to work anywhere else in this time and age. Enjoy the story and maybe glean a few nuggets, then move on.