Sub 3HR Fall Marathon Thread - The quest for less amateur glory begins?

I'll add my CIM report, such as it is. My target was 2:55, but unfortunately I was off the rails pretty much from mile 2. The opening mile was fine, but immediately after the first turn I felt my shoes slipping on the surface and my feet slipping inside my shoes. By mile 6, my feet were really sore and I found myself trying to alter my stride to compensate. Well, you know that never works. And it didn't. By 10 miles, my feet were sore, my quads had started to fatigue and my back got tight. Still, I continued on pace (consistent miles of 6:38 - 6:42) through 14, and my HR locked on 152 throughout. But then a quick sprinkle and more wet roads really messed me up and by 16 I was really in trouble. I slowed to 6:50, a couple at 7-flat then a 7:39 mile.

After crossing the 30K mat, I stopped for a minute to flex my feet and stretch my quads. I tried to run again but got nowhere so walked for about a half mile. After that, I was able to do a slow jog (8min pace) for a bit. Just past the 20 mile mark, I saw our club's coach on the side of the road, so I stopped and talked with him for about 10 minutes as I was really in no mood to keep going. After a bit, I started walking again because, really, and I had to either get to the finish or to my hotel, both of which were down course. I even picked up a walking partner who was having his own issues, so we walked and talked together. It then started raining again and I was getting cold, so around the 21 mile mark I resumed my slow jog. I was really thinking of jogging back to my hotel instead, but wasn't sure which would be the best way, when I then found myself at the 24 mile marker. So at that point I figured that I may as well keep going to the finish since my wife was there waiting anyway. Also, at that point I was actually passing more folks than I was getting passed by so that made the suck less sucky.

I finished in 3:23, having walked over 2 miles in total and stood around talking for at least 10 minutes. I stopped my garmin when I wasn't running and had only 24.1 miles on it when I finished. After everything, I'm glad I finished. I even beat my BQ qualifying time by over 11 minutes. Not that I care, because my main goal in doing this was to work on building a base before trying to resume speed training for 2020 track season. In two weeks, I'll have 6 months of solid base running accomplished for the first time in 8 years. I hope I'm never crazy enough to run another marathon. I like the 800/1500/mile much more, even the high intensity work required to run fast.

In my racing history the past 20+ years, I've never raced well on a wet surface. I don't have a large sample size living out here, but have raced about 7-8 times in distances from 800 meters on the track wearing spikes, to a couple of 8k road races in flats. In every case except for the 800 (a 1:58 @ age 37), I had issues with my feet slipping, which then led to a sore back in the longer efforts. Sunday was no different, it just sucked longer.

Congrats to both hwm and HarryPlopper for your performances.

HarryPlopper wrote:

Question: Do you all think the 50 vs. 30F temps are enough to explain a bad day?

Sure, at least partially explain. I think it was over 50 degrees, and of course 90-100% humidity. Personally, I lived in the South and ran through miserable summers and I'm used to it, and I can't fathom a February marathon on Cape Cod. But other folks are the opposite.

I'll also restate my belief that guys at our level couldn't possibly need more than a week taper, probably just a few easy days. Sure, pros hammering 120M/week may benefit from a long-term elaborate taper plan, but if one is already doing only a fraction of that mileage, there's nothing to taper other than the "Sunday long run".

In fact, even the pros and scholastic stars usually peak mid-season, unintentionally. As another example, I thought Phil/JS had a good thing going but also tapered too much from already low mileage (and started too fast (like me)).

HHW: keep posting and I'll follow. Shoot for A and if the stars align, negative split to A+

2:58:57 for a 25 minute PR @ CIM!

I have been racing triathlon for a few years now and with two little kids at home, transitioning to running made a lot of sense. This year, up until August, I’d mostly just done a solid amount of easy running and when I hit 16 weeks out, I started a fairly structured block.

My weekly mileage averaged 50.5 mpw for the 16 weeks, biggest week was 63.5, and I had to unplanned drop weeks that were less than 30 due to sickness. I did 5 runs longer than 16 miles and my longest run was 18.5 but my biggest day was 24 miles (doubled the day of the 18.5, 16 days out from race day).

I am most proud of the negative split - I ran through the half in 1:29:50 and the second half was just under 1:29. It was an almost perfect day out there - the humidity definitely made it feel warmer than it was, but coming from Bend, OR I thought the temperature was great. CIM’s course profile was not nearly as flat as I expected, I was glad to have driven the course the day before.

Congratulations to everyone who raced - it was awesome to share the course with you!

I’m not a YouTuber by any means - but I did upload a video recap of the race:

https://youtu.be/PQ6i9KiHvSg

fantastic consistent efforts - what is your target race weight?

I think it is probably going to end up at 175. I was 180.2 post 10 miler this morning. I did dip into the mid-high 170s a few weeks ago after 3 days that averaged like 15-16 and found that I was very fatigued. I have a lot of room for improvement with diet honestly so just eating 3 normal meals a day and cutting out the garbage should get me to where I need to be. That is going to be my focus in January after I get through the holiday season.

highhoppingworm wrote:

I think it is probably going to end up at 175. I was 180.2 post 10 miler this morning. I did dip into the mid-high 170s a few weeks ago after 3 days that averaged like 15-16 and found that I was very fatigued. I have a lot of room for improvement with diet honestly so just eating 3 normal meals a day and cutting out the garbage should get me to where I need to be. That is going to be my focus in January after I get through the holiday season.

Thats smart, you still have plenty of time. Jan is an easy month to be clean as most folks try to start the new year on a good foot.

Basic Stats: 34M/180ish LBs/6'2"

Goal Race: Hyannis Marathon on 2/23/2020

Goal Time: D: 3:05 (old guy BQ)/C: Sub 3/B: Sub 2:55/A: Sub 2:50/A+: Sub 2:45

Here is my week.

Monday (12/9) - 8E @ 7:40

Tuesday (12/10) - 10E @ 7:29. 50+ degrees. Felt great.

Wednesday (12/11) -Q2: 4E+3T+800mE+2T+800mE+2T+600mE+1T+1200E

Ran on treadmill do to active snowstorm. First time doing a treadmill workout like this. Ran at 1% incline and hit 7:30 for the warm-up E miles. 3T @ 5:55 pace, both 2T segments at 5:50 pace and the 1T segment at 5:43 pace. The jogs in-between reps were at 8:00 pace. Felt strong but felt like the treadmill was easier than track/roads. 14 on the day.

Thursday (12/12) - 10E @ 7:20. Felt really good.

Friday (12/13) - 8E @ 7:07. Was going to go longer and slower but had a bathroom emergency and had to hustle back.

Saturday (12/14) - 8E @ 7:32. Pouring rain.

Sunday (12/15) -Q1: 8E+3T+9E

8E @ 7:32 average. 3T on the track in 17:26 (5:52/5:50/5:46). Ran the 9E at the end with a friends @ 7:50 pace. Friend is a little bit slower and I forgot my gels at home so was feeling pretty gassed/low on fuel. Overall was very pleased with the workout. This was second time at 20 miles or more and the T portion felt really strong and controlled. There was also 20 MPH winds which made this a bit mentally challenging. 20 total on the day.

Total: 78 miles

A few comments:

1) After my run today I weighed in at 175. The holiday weight is officially off. Will focus on getting to a healthy 175 when I am not completely dehydrated.

2) Small injury concerns seemed to have dissipated. I added a ton of new shoes to my rotation and that seems to have helped. In general I felt really good on every run this week.

3) I still have a LOT of time before my goal race. I am excited by how much I can increase my fitness over the next 10 weeks or so.

Its time for spring marathon talk! Congrats on everyone else on the sub 3s the past few weeks. Great races all around.

I ran Indianapolis marathon on 11/9, just broke 3:00 (2:59:14). It will not be enough to get me into Boston, so I've spent the last few weeks in off season deciding on what to do next.

I already had two Ironman 70.3s on the calendar for next year, so I needed to plan around them.

Here is what I landed on:

Spring Marathon - 4/18 (12/15 - 4/18 = 18 weeks)

Des Moines 70.3 - 6/21 (9 weeks after Marathon)

Traverse City 70.3 - 8/30 (10 weeks after Des Moines, 19 weeks after Spring Marathon)

Marathon and Traverse City will be the two big races. Des Moines I obviously wont be trained for, but thats fine.

With that being said, structured training for an 18 week plan starts tomorrow. I did Pfitz 12/55 for this past marathon and I can not decide if I go Pfitz 18/55, 18/70, or build mileage and do 12/70.

I have not put in a ton of work in the past 4 weeks. No long runs, but various short runs to try and keep fitness.

Any thoughts?

Avg 45mpw for last 12 weeks of training: 39, 45, 44, 44, 37, 24, 58, 54, 42, 56, 49, 39, __, __

wk 1 taper (37), wk 2 taper (34). I basically started taper last week, did a 19 miler with 19 days to go.

Workouts in January, buttressed with easy miles between days:

Jan. 5 - 16 mile LR, avg. 6:57/mile

Jan. 8 - 3 x 1600, 45s rest, avg. 6:10/mile

Jan. 10 - 5 mile tempo, avg. 6:45/mile

Jan. 13 - 19 mile LR; first 10 avg. 6:46/mile, second 9 avg. 7:55/mile. fasted never hit wall

Jan. 18 - 9 mile tempo, avg. 6:32/mile. beautiful progression from 7:05->5:55

Jan. 21 - 3 x 1600. 90s rest (6:22, 6:08, 5:46) relaxed

Prospectively:

saturday Jan. 25 - 7 miles @GMP 6:50/mile

tuesday Jan. 28 - 4 x 1000. 90s rest, avg 6:30/mile

saturday feb .1 - Marathon

thoughts on prospective workouts, seem in good order?

1st taper week goal 37 miles

2nd taper week goal 34 miles

Free_the_thigh wrote:

5k time keeps come down, 18:31 now at 65k a week. Planning to keep slowly building up to 80k a week, and hopefully that alone will be enough to crack 18 and then I’ll start a start a proper structured routine to peak for a race.

Still not sure what, but feel I should probably do something quick and fast in the spring, then go for sub 3 again in the fall, that said, part of me is definitely tempted to do a spring marathon instead.

Good bump

Unfortunately, that’s all she wrote for me. A few days after this post my foot flared up with what has now been diagnosed as Morton’s neuroma.

Started strength training in mid dec when it became clear this was sticking around, with a few spin bikes sessions per week to keep me sane.

Haven’t ran at all since this flared up, except for two 15 minute treadmill sessions in this last 7 days, pay stayed steady while running though and felt worse after on the second day.

Still hoping to come back and run sub 3 someday, but no clue when that will be at this point, because things don’t seem to be getting better.

TheQuarrymen wrote:

Avg 45mpw for last 12 weeks of training: 39, 45, 44, 44, 37, 24, 58, 54, 42, 56, 49, 39, __, __

wk 1 taper (37), wk 2 taper (34). I basically started taper last week, did a 19 miler with 19 days to go.

Workouts in January, buttressed with easy miles between days:

Jan. 5 - 16 mile LR, avg. 6:57/mile

Jan. 8 - 3 x 1600, 45s rest, avg. 6:10/mile

Jan. 10 - 5 mile tempo, avg. 6:45/mile

Jan. 13 - 19 mile LR; first 10 avg. 6:46/mile, second 9 avg. 7:55/mile. fasted never hit wall

Jan. 18 - 9 mile tempo, avg. 6:32/mile. beautiful progression from 7:05->5:55

Jan. 21 - 3 x 1600. 90s rest (6:22, 6:08, 5:46) relaxed

Prospectively:

saturday Jan. 25 - 7 miles @GMP 6:50/mile

tuesday Jan. 28 - 4 x 1000. 90s rest, avg 6:30/mile

saturday feb .1 - Marathon

thoughts on prospective workouts, seem in good order?

1st taper week goal 37 miles

2nd taper week goal 34 miles

I have never been able to think in minutes per mile, just minutes per km, so can’t comment on pace

But distance wise that looks good.

Through some strides in the day or two before, but other than that just keep it easy.

Still hoping for sub-3:00 at Boston despite taking more time off than anticipated due to some plantar fasciitis. Went 1:21 in the fall on a pancake flat course, but then took almost 6 weeks off and have just come back with 37 two weeks ago and 41 last week. Aiming at getting up to 67 miles and using a modified Hanson Adv Marathon plan. My half time tells me I ought to be able to get this done, but we'll see.

That second taper week you can lower if that suits you. For me I ran similar mileage to you in my buildup and was probably more like 25 miles the final week. My final week was near identical, though I spaced it a tad differently (did last long run 8 days before).

Thinking for you:

S: 7 at GMP

M: 4 Easy

T: 4x1000 ~ 5 total

W: 4 Easy

TH: 4 Easy

FR: OFF

SAT: Race

My legs felt amazing due to the taper and running 6:40 pace was a breeze.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

That second taper week you can lower if that suits you. For me I ran similar mileage to you in my buildup and was probably more like 25 miles the final week. My final week was near identical, though I spaced it a tad differently (did last long run 8 days before).

Thinking for you:

S: 7 at GMP

M: 4 Easy

T: 4x1000 ~ 5 total

W: 4 Easy

TH: 4 Easy

FR: OFF

SAT: Race

My legs felt amazing due to the taper and running 6:40 pace was a breeze.

Appreciate the input @ThoughtsLeader and @free_the_thigh I feel like I'm on the very cusp of sub 3 and it can go either way. I didn't want to taper too hard as I have read alot on here that 40miles/70km a week is joke and I'm better to maintain thereabouts than the traditional drop 25% a week taper rule

Yeah, some will say that and for me to that point I didn't really change up mileage on my regular runs for what I did two weeks before except for a shortened long run and being careful with my workout not to go too hard. The last week I think it is ok to run 50-60% of your normal run length to feel really fresh. I ate really carefully to make sure I didn't add some weight and just felt the best I'd felt in weeks after doing so.

highhoppingworm how's things going? Just checking in to see your progress for the marathon in February. Still on track? Good luck!

×××××××××××××××××××××

My race was somewhat similar. I think it was closer to 60F and very humid. I was hoping for 2:58 but ran 3:03:23, good for 4th in M60, missed second in AG by 18 seconds. I didn't think it was an especially easy course, but it was probably just me feeling a bit off. I passed the 3 hour pace group at mile 1, and ran 6:45 pace through about 15 (1:27-mid HM). Then I ran 7:15 to 7:25 the rest of the way. Pace group passed me at 19.5. I didn't exactly hit the wall, I just struggled the whole last hour but kept pushing. I had run 6:19 pace for 12k on Thanksgiving, didn't expect 6:45 to feel so hard. I think I was just a little tired, didn't taper enough, but the humidity might have added a minute or two.

Going to join in on this thread, although it looks like a lot of you are way past sub 3 by now.

My stats: 29F, been running seriously for about 5 years in between 3 pregnancies ?. Running my 4th marathon in April(Boston) but hoping to run sub 3 in August at my home town marathon.

Most recent result was May 2019 when I ran 3:16 off of 40 miles a week. I’ve been working on increasing my mileage since then and have been running 70-80 miles for the last 2 months with one threshold workout and a long run. Following Daniels 2Q for now, my T pace is around 4:08/km and that feels just right. Sub 3 is more a long term goal but I think I will be able to get close in the spring.

Glad to see this bumped, was looking for it a few days ago.

Stats: 26/M 6'/~170lbs

Background: Mostly an ultra/trail runner, got a friend hooked on running and he's convinced me to try to BQ with him. I have a 1:24:01 HM PR (2017), so it should be possible.

Goal Race: Sugarloaf Marathon - 5/17/20

Goal Time: C: No injury B: Sub 3(BQ) A: Sub 2:55 (Estimated cutoff)

Been in the mid 60's for MPW on 6 days/week since early December. Looks like a minor calf injury will have me out for the rest of this week, but happy to take it easy since I haven't had a down week recently and my goal race isn't for awhile. Typical training looks like:

Mon Rest

Tues 10 easy (~7:45 Pace) + hills/strides

Wed ~12 mi. workout (8 x 3' on 2' easy, 10 x 3' on, 1' easy, etc. + WU/CD)

Thurs 10 easy

Fri 6 easy

Sat 16 easy (will be adding some pace specific work here, then increasing distance)

Sun 12 easy + hills/strides

Last big workout before injury was 3x6' hard with 4” easy (5:49/5:34/5:33 average paces)

Obviously my training could be optimized a bit more, but I'm happier keeping it lower key and avoiding the track. I'm hoping that focusing on (relative) speed over the winter will pay dividends on the trails this season - I'll be racing a few 50k's in early spring that I'll just count as "long runs" towards the marathon. Biggest concern is injury - I think with my background at larger distances and my half PR, sub 3 should be pretty doable as long as the high mileage on pavement doesn't wear me down.