Sub 3HR Fall Marathon Thread - The quest for less amateur glory begins?

Miles Kipfastguy wrote:

Yeah, I'd guess that lots of people run like this (50-60 mpw, a lot at the same fairly vigorous pace) and go sub 3. I do think the key to getting faster (sub 250, sub 245) for most people who are not in the 99% of talent is more miles (75 and above for most)...and if you add more miles, you will have to slow down....either exhaustion or injury will have its say.

Anyway, I agree: can but probably shouldn't.

But if a runner is building mileage and starts to get a lot of consistent weeks at 60-70, their easy-moderate pace should eventually start to get faster because they're getting in better shape (especially if they've run faster in the past).

A sub 3 is going to require at least 6:51s. I would expect a runner to have a good number of runs in the 7:30-7:15 range, leading into that.

9 weeks out from target Chicago marathon:

M: 7.3 miles @ 7:34 pace

T: 7.3 miles @ 7:28 pace

W: 4.4 miles @ 7:26 pace

Th: 6.8 miles @ 7:20 pace

Fri: 5.2 miles @ 7:43 pace

Sat: 20.5 miles @ 7:19 pace, first 10 easy, last 10 cut down to 6:20's, averaging 6:53 pace

Sun: will run 4-6 miles @ ~8 pace

Total: 55 - 57.5 miles

43-year-old male. It's been 20 years since I broke 3 hours. Most recent marathons were 4:29 two years ago, and 3:48 three years ago.

I've been averaging about 38 mph since March. I ran 37 this week, including a solid 18-miler at 7:38 per mile. That's a great confidence boost!

11 Weeks to Go - 37 miles

Sunday- off

Monday- 5 miles easy

Tuesday- 18.5 miles at 7:38 pace,

Wednesday- 5 miles at 9:31 pace

Thursday- 2 miles with 2 x 90" at 5K pace

Friday- off

Saturday- 12 miles at 8:09 pace

Doneafewmarathons wrote:

A sub 3 is going to require at least 6:51s. I would expect a runner to have a good number of runs in the 7:30-7:15 range, leading into that.

I'm a sample of one, but I have very little mileage in that pace range. My easy runs are generally between 8:40 and 9:20 pace; the only time I hit 7:15-7:30 pace is in the middle of a progression run. Otherwise, I'm either training at marathon pace or faster, or running easy, which is far slower.

[ran 2:57 last December]

darkwave wrote:

Doneafewmarathons wrote:

A sub 3 is going to require at least 6:51s. I would expect a runner to have a good number of runs in the 7:30-7:15 range, leading into that.

I'm a sample of one, but I have very little mileage in that pace range. My easy runs are generally between 8:40 and 9:20 pace; the only time I hit 7:15-7:30 pace is in the middle of a progression run. Otherwise, I'm either training at marathon pace or faster, or running easy, which is far slower.

[ran 2:57 last December]

This works^

When I was 15 I NEVER did speedwork or repeats of any kind. One solid effort a week, yes faster than race pace, a long run and miles, miles, miles for strength---not fast at all. Weird how it comes together on race day...but if you've done the work, it usually does;)

jaroruns wrote:

9 weeks out from target Chicago marathon:

M: 7.3 miles @ 7:34 pace

T: 7.3 miles @ 7:28 pace

W: 4.4 miles @ 7:26 pace

Th: 6.8 miles @ 7:20 pace

Fri: 5.2 miles @ 7:43 pace

Sat: 20.5 miles @ 7:19 pace, first 10 easy, last 10 cut down to 6:20's, averaging 6:53 pace

Sun: will run 4-6 miles @ ~8 pace

Total: 55 - 57.5 miles

Can I offer some advice? SLOW DOWN! Your runs during the week are nearly all the same pace and your long run looks more like a race than a workout to me. Don't leave your race in training.

It is interesting. Just for me, I would prefer not to do 8 miles at 8:10 ~ 65 minutes instead of what I currently do 6+ miles ~ 45 minutes. From a time commitment and patience standpoint . 7:15-7:30 pace does not feel hard for me in my current regimen. I'm only doing one workout a week (and my general runs are pretty flat terrain). Even last Friday, which was 12 hours after a 4x1 workout I had no interest in going fast and I still ran around 7:30 pace. So maybe I should be doing more workouts (fair thought). That being said before my first marathon I bet I did 3-4 workouts total. Now I'm set on doing one a week, so I feel that's an improvement.

Miles Kipfastguy wrote:

To several of the posters above...and I'm sure others will mention this...and I'm sure most/some of you will be defensive...but several of you seem to be running too fast for most of your runs. Truly at the sub-3 threshold and most of your runs are faster than 7:20? I'm not trying to troll y'all or throw a hammer into your works, but I really am questioning, Why? I'm guessing you guys are pushing to get that pace on off-days, and again I'm wondering why?

If this is actually easy, and I'm guessing it's not, consider adding miles...like up to 65-70 mpw for sub 3. But I would actually run slow more...will help to avoid injuries and get the most out of your quality days.

I'll jump in. Almost 40M. PR: 3:06 last fall. Not sure if I get to sub 3 but will run as fast as I can at Chicago, 9 weeks to go.

Last week:

M: Rest

T: 10.45 3x1k, hill, 1k

W: 6.52 8:40/mi

Th: 13.76 2T+1E+2T+1E+1T

Fri: 6.65 8:30/mi

S: 6.82 8:23/mi

Su: 19.09 2:30hrs 7:52/mi

Total: ~63

Good thread and good luck to all.

A bit more from my experience on training paces. For years I ran 50-60 miles a week with a lot of it at 7-7:30/mi and had a number of injuries and could never put together a good marathon. Best was just under 3:01. Figured that was where I was at and didn't run much or race for about 4 years. My wife got into running and I started running with her and most of my miles were at 9-10 min/mi and I just started running more. I would throw in some surges a few times a week, but really just ran a lot (hour or 2 per day on average) for the enjoyment. Ran a half marathon on a whim and ran 1:25. So I figured I would give the marathon another shot. Went through a 12 week training cycle and ran zero miles between my threshold pace of approximately 6:30/mi (give or take) and 8:15/mi. Threshold and speed work was about 10% of my weekly mileage. Averaged 85 miles per week for that training cycle. I ran 2:55 in less than ideal conditions. 3 years later and just shy of 50 years old I ran 2:48. For this I got the mileage up into the high 90s as an average for the training cycle and never ran anything between between threshold pace and about 8:15/mi (maybe a mile here or there dipping below 8/mi). Speed work and threshold work never exceeded 10% of my weekly mileage. Over that 3 year period I've had no injuries other than little niggles here and there. Nothing that has kept me from running. No burn out or long periods of time off, just lots of easy running and having fun with it.

Also, I'm a sample of one but for what its worth...

Oh, guess I should jump in to the quest for less glory. Now that I'm 50 years old and relatively satisfied with what I've been able to do in the marathon I figure I'll mess around and take another shot, but switch up the training by adding in some faster stuff at the end of my long runs in lieu of stand alone sustained threshold runs. Who knows, but fun to experiment a bit.

Thanks for the insight. I guess it comes down a bit to what you want to put into it and how you're doing on lower/faster mileage. Personally haven't got hurt yet and the idea of spending 8 hours a week running right now is a bit daunting. This is after all the quest for some amateur glory. I've seen enough here to understand that 75-80mpw I could substantially run slower on training runs and expect to improve. Have seen less that running slower to get 45-50mpw would be a good idea...

sub_3_is_the_goal wrote:

jaroruns wrote:

9 weeks out from target Chicago marathon:

M: 7.3 miles @ 7:34 pace

T: 7.3 miles @ 7:28 pace

W: 4.4 miles @ 7:26 pace

Th: 6.8 miles @ 7:20 pace

Fri: 5.2 miles @ 7:43 pace

Sat: 20.5 miles @ 7:19 pace, first 10 easy, last 10 cut down to 6:20's, averaging 6:53 pace

Sun: will run 4-6 miles @ ~8 pace

Total: 55 - 57.5 miles

Can I offer some advice? SLOW DOWN! Your runs during the week are nearly all the same pace and your long run looks more like a race than a workout to me. Don't leave your race in training.

This is great advice, slow down. I know someone who does this as well and never improves, same pace all the time. The poster is 100% right, please sloooooow down. It's sometimes harder to do, but you'll run faster because of it. Hard runs hard, but easy runs easy. Good luck mate!

I agree that slowing down is important for the additional mileage. As I have watched my mileage increase into the 70s this training block, my pace on a lot of runs is around 7:30 because of my overall fatigue. Most of the fatigue is from those 16-20 mile long runs that seem to take extra time to recover from.

Training update for 8/5- 8/11:

69 miles total.

Monday: 3 miles easy around 7:45 avg probably. sore from from long run the previous night where I did 10 miles right under marathon goal pace (15 total)

Tuesday: Began workout very late after a long day... 4 mile warmup, 3 mile tempo with 5:55 avg, 1 mile cooldown. Still not feeling great.

Wednesday: 12 fairly easy in 1:25. 7:10 avg.

Thursday: 6 miles easy and strides

Friday: Yasso 800s. 10x800 w/ roughly 500m jog rest (2:30 rest on avg). Averaged about 2:42 for them! not sure really what to make of this workout... Was starting to get pretty fatigued at the end.

Saturday: 12 miles on hilly route. 1:20:48. Ran with some fast guys and averaged 6:44. Hurting on all the hills.

Sunday: tried to do 20, but got in 17. 2:09:30. 7:37 avg. Ran at sunset. It was very hot and humid. I was also feeling the fatigue of Friday's workout and Saturday's fairly hard longer run.

Overall solid week. Only 3 weeks away from marathon date! Time to start the taper.

My weekday runs are easy, and my long runs are usually controlled-hard. I don't do any workouts during the week, which is why I've taken to running easy during the week and treating the long run as a harder workout. I ran 2:58 earlier this spring (second marathon ever) on 2 months of this training schedule, although only on 40-50 miles per week. I'm slowly trying to increase this cycle to 50-60 miles, hoping to run sub-2:53.

Got in 90 miles last week. Mostly easy runs around 8:00 pace. Tuesday was the first “session” of any kind since grandma’s Marathon in June. Previously had just been building mileage back up with easy runs the past 6-7 weeks.

Did a light fartlek/timed interval session on Tuesday of 8x3:00/1:00 on/off...Thursday was a 4 mile tempo around 6:50 pace (with warmup/cool down etc), 16 mile LR Sunday

17 weeks out from CIM. Looking at a local half marathon mid September to see where I’m at before I really start doing some more actual type workouts

Last week 50 miles, mostly at 7:50-8:15 easy pace. Did a Tuesday fartlek of 20/1/1, and my long run this week was a 13 mile constant uphill with about 4300ft of gain, so I figure that counts a bit more than the miles show.

drocha86 wrote:

Got in 90 miles last week. Mostly easy runs around 8:00 pace. Tuesday was the first “session” of any kind since grandma’s Marathon in June. Previously had just been building mileage back up with easy runs the past 6-7 weeks.

Did a light fartlek/timed interval session on Tuesday of 8x3:00/1:00 on/off...Thursday was a 4 mile tempo around 6:50 pace (with warmup/cool down etc), 16 mile LR Sunday

17 weeks out from CIM. Looking at a local half marathon mid September to see where I’m at before I really start doing some more actual type workouts

That is some pretty solid mileage! What did you run at Grandma's? What is your goal for CIM?

Great updates all!

Finished up a 60 mile week with about 6,000 of elevation gain...Sunday’s long run was a 17 mile out and back effort up to Whiteface Mountain in Lake Placid...3,600 feet of climbing, averaged 8:30 for the entire run. Legs are SHOT! Monday and Tuesday have been 2.5 mile shakeout runs at 9-10min mile. Hope to fire up the engine tomorrrow

Nice. I always like the feeling of getting back at it and doing some faster running after laying off a bit. I'll be 12 weeks out next week so training will start in earnest. Been trying to set myself up so I'm easing into it instead of what feels like starting from zero. Just over 80 miles mostly easy last week with mid-week 5 x 1000 at threshold and 90 sec jog recovery plus 5 x 200m at 5k pace with 200m jog recovery. End of the week I threw in 10k progression at end of my 18 mile long run working from 7:20 to 6:45/mi.