Going Vegetarian? Going Vegan?

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  • Sirloin Stu
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 9:52am CDT
    re: runnerwithuc
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    runnerwithuc wrote:

    At that time even the meat consumption in USA were sixfold lower than it is now. Sixfold. .

    You cheery pick what you want to read and hear.


    Even for a vegan, you are a really poor liar:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjNg4PdwvPjAhUYqZ4KHTxSCUYQjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.earth-policy.org%2Fdata_highlights%2F2012%2Fhighlights25&psig=AOvVaw1oJI5Vx2GLJ2mE47mNZ2Zx&ust=1565362076164023

    Or maybe your VBF (vegan brain fog) combined with malnutrition creates numbers in your head like a form of Turettes/epilepsy?
  • runnerwithuc
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 1:22pm CDT
    re: Sirloin Stu
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    LOL, seems you are the only one here with brain fog.

    If you look at the aggregate numbers of the same link you posted you will find about sixfold meat consumption increase since 1950s. But I guess aggregate operations are too heavy for cholesterol pumped brain.

    Eat your meat and leave us alone
  • Piano_Man87
    registered
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 1:51pm CDT
    re: Sirloin Stu
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    Sirloin Stu wrote:
    We are carnivores by biology, and plants are a very poor substitute in order to get through famine. If you choose to live the rest of your life telling your body that it is experiencing a famine, then dive right in my friend.


    Carnivores can synthesize Vitamin C, but we lost that genetic adaptation a long time ago because we were eating so many Vitamin C rich foods.

    Humans do not do well in the long term on a Carnivore diet. The easiest example of an entire people doing this are the Inuit (Eskimos). However, they are known to eat the partially digested plant matter from the stomachs of mammals to get some fiber in their diet. They also have short lifespans, and mummified Inuit (pre-western civilization processed food) show atherosclerosis.

    There's a reason why slaughterhouse workers are at high risk of getting PTSD. Killing animals all day is hard on humans because we empathize with other animals. If you took a bear (an omnivore - not even a carnivore) and put it in a slaughterhouse, it would see a buffet and have a great time. Take anyone who eats meat and put them in a slaughterhouse, and they are at a high risk of psychological problems, and will probably be turned off of eating many kinds of meat. Does that sound like a carnivore, or even an omnivore?

    If you look at the common traits of carnivores vs omnivores, vs herbivores, humans are towards the herbivore end of the omnivore spectrum - intestinal length to torso ratio, our teeth, claws (lack thereof), ability to survive on the various nutrients available, etc.

    Ultimately the classification like any classification is human opinion, so it is imperfect. My only question is - what diet is optimal for human health, in terms of length of life, length of healthy life, and athletic performance?

    It may be that for certain athletic feats, an omnivorous diet is optimal. But if you structure your diet for optimal athletics, that means you put health on the back burner - the two don't necessarily go hand in hand. So it is a tertiary question for me. After all, look at the consequences of doping... short term athletic gains, and usually negative health consequences.
  • There's vitamin C in fresh meat and it is really high in liver.
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 1:56pm CDT
    re: Piano_Man87
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    There's vitamin C in fresh meat and it is really high in liver.
  • runnerwithuc
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 2:19pm CDT
    re: There's vitamin C in fresh meat and it is really high in liver.
    Forum Index
    There's vitamin C in fresh meat and it is really high in liver. wrote:

    There's vitamin C in fresh meat and it is really high in liver.


    Yes, you go ahead and eat liver on daily basis – then report back how's living with chronic hypervitaminosis A.
  • runnerwithuc
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 2:32pm CDT
    re: Piano_Man87
    Forum Index

    ...and to add my two cents – carnivores eat meat raw and will always choose to consume organ meat firsthand. Also the diet of genetically closest to human omnivores (some primates) consists of only around 1-2% animal protein.

    So anthropologically, as Piano_Man87 already laid out, humans are as much carnivores as zebras are related to penguins.
  • ((((((((((
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 2:35pm CDT
    re: runnerwithuc
    Forum Index

    Brains of chimps vs humans:
    https://thehumanevolutionblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/chimphumanbraincomp.gif

    This behavior is seen more in captive primates, due to not being fed meat.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d0xbia1m4LA
  • upyoes
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 2:51pm CDT
    re: runnerwithuc
    Forum Index
    runnerwithuc wrote:

    There's vitamin C in fresh meat and it is really high in liver. wrote:

    There's vitamin C in fresh meat and it is really high in liver.


    Yes, you go ahead and eat liver on daily basis – then report back how's living with chronic hypervitaminosis A.


    No one has gotten toxic vitamin A from liver, ever. Just more vegan BS.
  • Sirloin Stu
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 2:56pm CDT
    re: runnerwithuc
    Forum Index
    runnerwithuc wrote:

    LOL, seems you are the only one here with brain fog.

    If you look at the aggregate numbers of the same link you posted you will find about sixfold meat consumption increase since 1950s. But I guess aggregate operations are too heavy for cholesterol pumped brain.

    Eat your meat and leave us alone


    So 140 to 170 is "sixfold" in your crackpot world? Maybe 1/6 = "sixfold" to your shrunken neurons? Meanwhile beef consumption has FALLEN by 45%. True idiocy on your part.
  • Piano_Man87
    registered
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 2:59pm CDT
    re: upyoes
    Forum Index
    upyoes wrote:

    runnerwithuc wrote:

    There's vitamin C in fresh meat and it is really high in liver. wrote:

    There's vitamin C in fresh meat and it is really high in liver.


    Yes, you go ahead and eat liver on daily basis – then report back how's living with chronic hypervitaminosis A.


    No one has gotten toxic vitamin A from liver, ever. Just more vegan BS.


    We’re getting away from the point which is that humans don’t function well as carnivores. If you want to get your vitamin C from raw liver, go for it. But cooking at high temperatures destroys vitamin C, so I think I’ll just eat some fruit instead...
  • who can it be now?
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 3:09pm CDT
    re: runnerwithuc
    Forum Index
    runnerwithuc wrote:
    So anthropologically, as Piano_Man87 already laid out, humans are as much carnivores as zebras are related to penguins.


    Stomach Ph of humans: 1.5
    Stomach Ph of monkeys: 6

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4519257/

    https://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/gutpart.jpg?w=510&h=353
  • X-Vegan
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 3:29pm CDT
    re: Piano_Man87
    Forum Index
    Piano_Man87 wrote:

    upyoes wrote:

    runnerwithuc wrote:

    There's vitamin C in fresh meat and it is really high in liver. wrote:

    There's vitamin C in fresh meat and it is really high in liver.


    Yes, you go ahead and eat liver on daily basis – then report back how's living with chronic hypervitaminosis A.


    No one has gotten toxic vitamin A from liver, ever. Just more vegan BS.


    We’re getting away from the point which is that humans don’t function well as carnivores. If you want to get your vitamin C from raw liver, go for it. But cooking at high temperatures destroys vitamin C, so I think I’ll just eat some fruit instead...


    I have functioned as a vegan, as an omnivore and as a carnivore. Despite the ravages of the first two diets over the years, all problems resolved or at least reduced significantly with a carnivore-based diet, and many acute and chronic conditions triggered by plant foods are gone. Anyone who hasn't tried the spectrum of eating is just a phony commenting without relevant experience. If I hadnt tried vegan for a solid stint I wouldn't comment on that which I do not know, but based on my own and the experiences of tens of thousands of others, the human diet is clearly evolved to be animal-based.
  • Piano_Man87
    registered
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 3:33pm CDT
    re: who can it be now?
    Forum Index
    who can it be now? wrote:

    runnerwithuc wrote:
    So anthropologically, as Piano_Man87 already laid out, humans are as much carnivores as zebras are related to penguins.


    Stomach Ph of humans: 1.5
    Stomach Ph of monkeys: 6

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4519257/

    https://rawfoodsos.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/gutpart.jpg?w=510&h=353


    Our closest living evolutionary relatives are bonobos and chimps. Chimps are omnivores and bonobos are mostly vegan. Some of the other apes like gorillas are 100% vegan.

    It doesn’t say much cause they are literally a different species, and I don’t want to make a shrewd version of the appeal to nature logical fallacy. (Eg it’s natural to eat animal products cause chimps do and we are almost identical to them!)
  • Piano_Man87
    registered
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 3:38pm CDT
    re: X-Vegan
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    X-Vegan wrote:

    Piano_Man87 wrote:

    upyoes wrote:

    runnerwithuc wrote:

    There's vitamin C in fresh meat and it is really high in liver. wrote:

    There's vitamin C in fresh meat and it is really high in liver.


    Yes, you go ahead and eat liver on daily basis – then report back how's living with chronic hypervitaminosis A.


    No one has gotten toxic vitamin A from liver, ever. Just more vegan BS.


    We’re getting away from the point which is that humans don’t function well as carnivores. If you want to get your vitamin C from raw liver, go for it. But cooking at high temperatures destroys vitamin C, so I think I’ll just eat some fruit instead...


    I have functioned as a vegan, as an omnivore and as a carnivore. Despite the ravages of the first two diets over the years, all problems resolved or at least reduced significantly with a carnivore-based diet, and many acute and chronic conditions triggered by plant foods are gone. Anyone who hasn't tried the spectrum of eating is just a phony commenting without relevant experience. If I hadnt tried vegan for a solid stint I wouldn't comment on that which I do not know, but based on my own and the experiences of tens of thousands of others, the human diet is clearly evolved to be animal-based.


    So you basically did an elimination diet, and some plant foods were making you unwell, so you excluded all of them and felt better? And now you think all plant foods are bad? And there are others who have also down this so you think this works for everyone despite no controlled scientific study?
  • big dave22
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 3:55pm CDT
    re: Piano_Man87
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    Piano_Man87 wrote:
    Killing animals all day is hard on humans because we empathize with other animals.


    lol

    The vegan diet is dependent on agriculture, which sterilizes and denudes natural landscapes, killing countless animals and native planets in the process. Veganism is dependent on a variety of imported edible plants. Many are picked by literal slaves. All are transported by vehicles burning damaging fossil fuels. There's no practical way to argue that veganism is "more ethical" than an omnivore or carnivore diet.

    Nice job shilling for the agricultural and pharmaceutical companies, boyo.

    S. Canaday wrote:

    First of all a grain like quinoa alone has all 9 essential amino acids. But we're not worried about "complete proteins all at once" ....rather the blend of amino acids over the course of several meals in a day.

    You list "heme-iron" like it is a requirement when "non-heme-iron" can be better for long term health. Too much heme iron can be very bad for the human body and likely leads to cancer. Obviously you want your body's iron stores in an ideal range and it can be a fine balance regardless of diet.

    Then you're worried about "anitnutrients"? We've gone over this before...stuff like Lectins and Oxalates (found in raw, uncooked, unsoaked legumes/beans for example) are basically neutralized when the beans are soaked and or cooked. Who eats raw, rock hard beans?! Cooking is a big evolution for a lot of foods - and it made them fit for human consumption. Ever try to eat raw chicken?

    Sorry to hear about your B12 and iron issues as a vegetarian. That is certainly not something I'd wish on anyone (regardless of diet or caliber of running). However, those can happen whether you eat meat or not. It is about eating a balanced diet and eating enough calories for your physical demands.

    As far as the supplements (multivitamins etc) go, Do you not think that athletes who eat a "regular diet" never take anything? I put supplements (i.e. some basic vitamin boosts like B12) in line something like vaccine technology. I mean, would you also not get a tetanus shot or abstain from antibiotics and other forms of modern medicine and nutrition too? What about fortified foods?

    In a perfect world you get "all the vitamins and nutrients you need" in a perfect balance all from a perfect well rounded diet...however for most people (especially endurance athletes) even in 1st world countries this is far from the case. Regardless of whether you eat animal products or not there are all sorts of things people can be deficient and unbalanced in.
    ...and that can lead to all sorts of health issues.


    Hilarious to see you pop into these threads. You're like the poster boy for "why veganism doesn't work." As I recall, you were absolutely slaughtered by a meat-eating woman in your last race.
  • Piano_Man87
    registered
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 4:07pm CDT
    re: big dave22
    Forum Index
    big dave22 wrote:

    lol

    The vegan diet is dependent on agriculture, which sterilizes and denudes natural landscapes, killing countless animals and native planets in the process. Veganism is dependent on a variety of imported edible plants. Many are picked by literal slaves. All are transported by vehicles burning damaging fossil fuels. There's no practical way to argue that veganism is "more ethical" than an omnivore or carnivore diet.

    Nice job shilling for the agricultural and pharmaceutical companies, boyo.


    80% of all farmland is used to grow food for livestock, even though animal products provide about 20% of all calories consumed.

    So if you want to help the environment you should go vegan.

    And this is why vegans are more intelligent than meat eaters. You need to know a lot of science to be able to understand why it is actually a great choice. Good for your health, good for the environment, and good for the wellbeing of animals.

    The only reason to meat is “I like to eat meat.” Which is fine. There’s nothing wrong with the argument of saying “I like it, don’t take it away.”

    But don’t give me all this BS about how meat is healthy, good for the environment, good for running, etc.

    People used to think smoking was healthy and Tour de France cyclists would smoke before some stages to “prep” their lungs. People on this thread would be saying we all need to do this cause that’s what the elites do - if we were talking about cycling 50 years ago.
  • . . . . . . . . . . .
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 4:11pm CDT
    re: Piano_Man87
    Forum Index
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI
  • Ignorant POS
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 4:11pm CDT
    re: Sirloin Stu
    Forum Index
    Sirloin Stu wrote:

    Even for a vegan, [ edited drivel ]


    Go away, Trump, you moron. You're a fat unhealthy pig, and you don't even run.
  • Who's healthier? Vegans or Trump?
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 4:13pm CDT
    re: Ignorant POS
    Forum Index
    Ignorant POS wrote:

    Sirloin Stu wrote:

    Even for a vegan, [ edited drivel ]


    Go away, Trump, you moron. You're a fat unhealthy pig, and you don't even run.


    Who's healthier? Vegans or Trump?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be8P1OF4DBU
  • YMMV
    registered
    1 year ago 08/08/2019 4:21pm CDT
    re: Piano_Man87
    Forum Index

    Among Darwin's finches, one species has a heavy bill and eats only seeds and nuts, while another has a thin bill and eats only insects. Yet they are each other's closest relatives, all descended from a common ancestor which landed on the Galapagos Islands 2 million years ago.

    This is called "adaptive radiation" and occurs when a new niche (such as new herds of game in a drier savanna environment) and an existing species (australopithecus, in our case) takes advantage of the new situation and food resource. In the case of humans, this fueled a 3x increase in brain size and a 3x reduction in gut size (though this is going backwards in 2019 with the advent of veganism), as well as the ability to sweat on naked skin and persistence hunt larger game. Ecologically in our ancestral environment, the closest parallel species to humans is the wolf, another medium-sized diurnal persistence carnivore which we ended up domesticating as our hunting partner. Humans never domesticated chimps because we don't share any ecological similarities with them.
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