I'd focus on getting essential amino acids and not worry about protein intake. You don't need to eat any "complete protein" as you don't utilize proteins from animals or plants directly; enzymes cleave the polypeptide backbones of these proteins and then re-assemble the proteins that you need with the requisite amino acids that were cleaved. Ergo, you really just need the amino acids. So, I'd just look up the daily recommended amount of the essential amino acids; that is, worry about getting the amino acids that you can't produce and must get from your diet. Then, find plant foods that have these amino acids and eat the right amounts of these foods based on the guidelines.
Best of luck and enjoy your fruit and veg!
Going Vegetarian? Going Vegan?
Training Advice/Discussion
High School
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Within a week after going vegan here is what happened to me:
1. I'd go into a high end restaurant (without a reservation) and immediately be seated at the best table.
2. Always upgraded to first class on my flights.
3. Went to a baseball game and was invited to sit in the dugout.
4. Went to "Gentleman's Club" and the ladies were giving me dollar bills.
5. Went from a 3:15 marathon to a 2:19 without changing my training.
6. Got a 30% raise without even asking.
7. When I would leave the house for my run, birds would start singing, the temperature would drop from 95 degrees with 78 degrees dewpoint to 60 degrees with a 45 degree dewpoint.
8. During my out and back runs the wind would be at my back at the start, and as soon as I made the turn, the wind would shift and be at my back for the inbound leg.
9. Kipchoge called me and asked for some tips for Breaking 2.
I'm telling you - this vegan stuff works, baby! If you don't believe it you are a HATER and a DENIER. -
I was vegetarian for a few years after I married my then vegetarian wife. I ran well on that diet and enjoyed it. We are no longer vegetarian. I still run well and enjoy my diet. (My wife is an excellent cook.)
Around the time that we married, however, my wife was experiencing some diet-related health problems. She had been vegetarian for 20 years. She is a very health conscious person and makes nearly everything from scratch. Since we've been married, we have never eaten a lot of processed junk food. We eat out less than once per month. One of the books that we read before we changed our diet was "The Vegetarian Myth". I would recommend reading that book before you get too far into being vegetarian or vegan. The author of that book experienced many of the same health issues that my wife had, but with greater severity. My wife had tried going vegan at one time, but reverted to being vegetarian because she did not feel well on a vegan diet.
Over the course of several years, we altered our diet by reintroducing meat, eliminating grains, and restricting sugar. My wife's issues have been mostly under control for the past 5-6 years, but she still has to be careful with what she eats and when she eats it. The elimination of grains and restriction of sugar may have had the greater health impact, but, we're unlikely to cut out meat again to test that. Going gluten-free or just reducing grains rather than eliminating all grain may be enough. But, we're happy and healthy eating as we do now, so there is no reason to keep experimenting. -
Went vegetarian 12 years ago and have never looked back. Still eat a fair amount of eggs and dairy but I don't supplement and still weigh the same as in college and still run similar times as in college.
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wow, this thread is 90% pro-vegetarian/vegan, pro- no-meat, with only a couple EAT MEAT OR DIE trolls. Surprising. the anti-vegan/anti-Sage Canaday/pro Gary Taubes/ Keto Kult Klowns are asleep at the wheel today.
YMMV, are you home???? Your head is gonna explode when you read this thread. Take some deep breaths before you respond. It's okay. -
Hi, excellent question.
I ran 4:06 in college and post-college transitioned to veganism over the course of a couple of months. It's been 3 years and I've maintained the diet. I'll just make note of a few things I wish I knew earlier.
- Pound that B12! You just can't get enough of it in a vegan diet unless you eat pounds of mushrooms every day. Take a regular supplement or season food with nutritional yeast. I take iron as well to be safe, though you can get that from plenty of plant-based foods too (legumes, grains, nuts, etc.). No issues with protein. Unless you eat just carrots 24/7, you won't have any issues with protein. That's a myth.
- Your body does need saturated fat to thrive on higher intensity training. Enjoy processed foods occasionally; you need the fat, omegas, carbs, and obviously calories. I tried to go entirely just straight-up plants for a couple of months and found it really difficult. Too much fiber, not enough carbohydrates.
- Your body will recover quicker if you treat it right. Plant-based foods don't have nearly as many inflammatory ingredients in them so you bounce back quicker. Just make sure you get a good amount of protein/carbs in your system quickly after a run and especially a hard effort.
- My body didn't actually change a ton in the long run but it did initially. I lost weight but that was because I just wasn't doing it right and being stupid by combining the vegan diet with counting calories (all while training Spartan-style on 60-80mpw with intense workouts). Dumb. 10/10 would not recommend. After I nailed the ins and outs of the diet and found what worked the best for me, my body plateaued out and I was just more lean and stronger than before.
All in all, if you do it right, I think it's a good thing. It certainly was for me. Ended up running 4:01 and 14:07 and still going strong. -
veggie runner wrote:
Anybody want to share their story of going vegetarian or vegan as a runner? Any problems with iron or protein? Did you lose weight or notice changes in your body shape as a result? I went vegetarian a little over a month ago and I'm considering going completely vegan. Other info: I'm female, in my late teens, and my BMI is somewhere between 18.2 and 19.0
Why did you include your BMI? What does that have to do with going vegetarian or vegan?
To me, that indicates you are curious about trying the vegetarian or vegan lifestyle in order to lose weight which is THE WRONG REASON.
You should be doing it simply because you do not desire to eat meat anymore. Not to lose weight, not to gain weight. -
I'm still 1% vegan, so the veggie-peeps can always cite the handful of berries I had yesterday to account for my incredible body composition, world-class strength, stamina and cognition as well as topnotch overall health.
Plants are a miracle food! Eat a little bit once every few days and it cancels out all the damage caused by those evil steaks, roasts, liver, bone broth, bacon, eggs, fish, butter and cream.
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn11.bigcommerce.com%2Fs-kloz71qit7%2Fimages%2Fstencil%2F800x1054%2Fproducts%2F878%2F1390%2FRibEyeSteak__98739.1512524605.jpg%3Fc%3D2&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.growandbehold.com%2Frib-eye-steak%2F&docid=XExoV4JSxKNz6M&tbnid=eBOiBuzZT7R4eM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwiwp9jOrO_jAhXGv54KHS6NAKMQMwiMASgLMAs..i&w=800&h=600&client=firefox-b-1-d&bih=472&biw=981&q=ribeye&ved=0ahUKEwiwp9jOrO_jAhXGv54KHS6NAKMQMwiMASgLMAs&iact=mrc&uact=8 -
Vegan and vegetarian in one day, another day is meat.
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Veganism is a mental disorder.
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I'm a 26 y/o female, and I went vegetarian 2 years ago. I still eat dairy, and eggs. I haven't really noticed much of a difference. I didn't lose or gain any weight... I've been about the same since high school. I did run PRs in some races, but I think that can be attributed to my training more than my diet.
I recently got blood work done just to get iron, b12 etc. checked, and everything was in the normal range. I think if you just do a good job of eating balanced, and getting a variety of foods its not too hard to stay healthy as a ovo-lacto vegetarian. I don't have plans to ever go completely vegan. I just think it would be too restrictive and I would struggle, but the vegetarian diet is working for me! -
Veggie kung pow wrote:
I stopped eating meat a few months ago. Didn't lose any weight, or have any issues. I have a veggie based protein shake every morning.
Absolutely love the diet, and haven't had any issues and feel great.
I can't imagine going vegan though. Way too restrictive for me. At least I can cop a veggie power burrito from Taco Bell if I'm on the road and in a hurry. I don't have how vegans manage.
This highlights the problem with how people think about a vegan diet. Sadly, we make it into a moral imperative: either you never eat animal products or you don't belong.
It should just mean that you *generally* don't eat animal-based products. Just like you perhaps generally don't eat McDonalds for lunch. To get more people onto a vegan diet, there needs to be a paradigm shift. We need to say "I eat vegan" rather than "I am vegan." -
Simple. The shift is this:
You eat a “Whole foods, plant based diet”.
That could easily have a little meat (prob fish mainly) and even eggs. The key is less processed food, less refined sugar etc. It could be 90% vegan technically though.
You break things down into essential vitamins and nutrients: amino acids, vitamins/minerals. This can all be done vegan. Obviously there is a macro mix, but and ratios can vary, but the body was designed to run well on carbs (and body fat). The brain functions best on carbs. Protein should not be an issue if one is eating enough calories from at least some variety.
Yeah, I’d for sure monitor vitamin B12 and omega 3s as a 100% vegan though. Meat eaters can also be low in these things as the Western diet usually is more super high in Omega 6s. Again i know plenty of guys that i ran with in college and at Hansons who ate red meat all the time and still got low on iron. They also drank tons of milk and still got stress fractures and injured all the time! People are too quick to blame diet for all their health woes though. Obviously lots of variables involved from genes to lifestyle.
However, there’s good evidence diet can shape our mental pathways/behaviors and decisions and that this all may even be tied to the gut microbiome.
This is where plant foods (fruits and veggies) can add a diversity of fiber and the introduction of good bacteria. Not to mention tons of antioxidants and anti-inflammatory compounds.
Again the “double whammy” is high fat and high sugar. That is diabetes and obesity epidemic right there. You eat ice cream and its high fat and high sugar...not just the “evil sugar of carbs”. Too much bad cholesterol. And we wonder why heart disease is a leading killer in the US?! Same goes for many highly processed foods. -
I went vegan 3+ years ago because I was diagnosed with Ulcerative colitis and had serious flare that landed me in hospital. I haven't eaten meat, fish or eggs even once since then. Occasionally I eat hard, lactose free cheese but not more than 1-2 oz per day and usually not more than once per week. No other dairy whatsoever. I also avoid processed food. I am on plant based low fat high carb diet with 1-2 days per week of normal eating (about 30% kcal from fat on those days). I supplement with multivitamins and iron. Especially magnesium and vitamin D.
My BMI for the past 3 years is 20.0 to 20.5. I don't take protein but do weights to keep my muscles. My mileage is constantly 55 mpw.
Regarding my training I follow Daniels/Tinman training and have been able to continue to PR since then despite disease. My current half marathon PB as of spring is 75:40 on hilly course with 600+ feet total climb. 10k PB is 34:00 flat. -
S. Canaday wrote:
Again the “double whammy” is high fat and high sugar. That is diabetes and obesity epidemic right there. You eat ice cream and its high fat and high sugar...not just the “evil sugar of carbs”. Too much bad cholesterol. And we wonder why heart disease is a leading killer in the US?! Same goes for many highly processed foods.
Actually, you and YMMV agree on that. He has also pointed out that all super-palatable foods are right in the middle zone of about the same calories from fat as from carbs. A Dunkin "sugar donut" has more calories from fat than from carbs. Potato chips also usually have more calories from fat than from carbs. Ice cream, pizza, and junk food all tend to be both high fat and high carb.
One side says the problem is the carbs, the other side says the problem is the fat. They're both right. Or maybe both wrong. -
Exactly. Seems like a lot of people like to blame "sugar and carbs" when a lot of these dessert types of food also are also super high in fat.
It is the combo that is really bad though....generally seen in highly processed food. You spike your insulin (with high sugar) and you block insulin receptors (with high fat). That is a recipe for type II diabetes right there.
But in general for most Americans with health related problems it stems from obesity which is generally from simply eating too many calories (And not exercising enough). Combine that with other life stressors and not sleeping enough and you get type II diabetes, heart disease, cancer etc. Many Americans generally don't eat enough fruits and veggies.
But of course you can still get cancer if you run a lot and are lean. BMI doesn't matter as much as body fat % and keeping a hormone balance and having good blood flow. Also colon health. Back to the gut microbiome and fiber....
Highly processed red meat is a known carcinogen....even something like casein protein (dairy) seems to have a high correlation with tumor growth and possible cancer risk. Of course cancer also likes to feed on sugar as well.
And obviously one needs a certain ratio of all the macros (and all essential amino acids/vitamins/minerals). The issue is whether or not all these "keto-low carb" and "carnivore diet types" will start having major health issues in the next 10-20 years as these generally tend to be more "fad type" of newer kinds of diets. Vegans/Vegetarians have been around for centuries. This is nothing new.
elephino wrote:
S. Canaday wrote:
Again the “double whammy” is high fat and high sugar. That is diabetes and obesity epidemic right there. You eat ice cream and its high fat and high sugar...not just the “evil sugar of carbs”. Too much bad cholesterol. And we wonder why heart disease is a leading killer in the US?! Same goes for many highly processed foods.
Actually, you and YMMV agree on that. He has also pointed out that all super-palatable foods are right in the middle zone of about the same calories from fat as from carbs. A Dunkin "sugar donut" has more calories from fat than from carbs. Potato chips also usually have more calories from fat than from carbs. Ice cream, pizza, and junk food all tend to be both high fat and high carb.
One side says the problem is the carbs, the other side says the problem is the fat. They're both right. Or maybe both wrong. -
I've been vegetarian, but not vegan, for 12 years. I'm a 24-year-old woman. I run marathons, I am not and have never been fast at all, but my race times have improved over time, from a 5:05 marathon to a 4:24 marathon in two years, and I hope to continue dropping time. My weight and body composition has been mostly the same since high school.
For Iron, twice in the past decade I have become anemic and been prescribed supplements by my doctor. I get my blood tested about every 18 months or so and its generally OK/normal except for those two times. Taking multivitamins with B12 helps.
One thing to note is that in choosing a diet that is meatless or completely plant-based takes a social toll. Holidays with my family are different because they no longer (for me) are as centered around food. Going out to dinner with friends is often not about having a yummy dinner but about spending time with my friends because my options eating out are pretty limited (in addition to being vegetarian, I am allergic to garlic).
A benefit outside of health is that I like knowing that my diet has less impact on the environment. -
The “double whammy” thing is what most of people don't understand is the cause of the health issues, diabetes, obesity and heart problems. They tend to see only black and white and hence think that sugar or fat is bad when in fact that is not how this works.
To understand the “double whammy” mechanisms which drive fat accumulation and diabetes you need to understand how hormonal system works:
1) Normally, when you ingest sugar, your blood glucose level starts to rise
2) As glucose is the body's preferred source of fuel, in response to glucose rise in blood, your pancreas releases a hormone called insulin
3) Insulin binds to the insulin receptors on various cells like a key in the door lock that opens the gate and allows cells to uptake the glucose
4) If you ingest notable amounts of fat, your blood triglycerides will also start to rise in the bloodstream
5) These triglycerides then attach to the insulin receptors on the cells and block the insulin sensing of the receptors
6) Since insulin receptors are blocked, cells cannot uptake glucose and blood sugar level continues to rise
7) In response to this, pancreas works in overreaching mode to release even more insulin so the glucose may be uptaken
8) If this happens on the daily basis, eventually your pancreas will run flat and you will land flat with type 1 diabetes
9) This would not happen if
- you eat low fat diet (as then there are no triglycerides that can block insulin receptors)
- you eat low carb diet (as then there are no high blood sugar that must be uploaded into cells)
This is why both true HCLF and true LCHF diets work for diabetes and health as both diets safeguard pancreas from overreaching. I emphasize word "true" because 20-30% fat/carb is not low fat/carb diet as some people still thinks.
If you can understand this mechanism you have the key to good health as you know which foods you must absolutely avoid – and these are foods that contain large amounts of fat and sugar – fries, chips, cakes, pies, cookies etc. as these will put you in fat comatose.
If you want to eat carbs, do it, but wait 1-2 hours before you want to eat anything containing moderate to large amount of fat.
If you want to eat fat, do it, but wait 2-3 hours before you want to eat anything containing moderate to large amount of carbs.
As a side note – fat is almost never created from sugar as it is very inefficient way. In study research with radioactively marked food of averagely gained 230 grams of fat only 4 grams or so came from sugar by means of the de novo lipogenesis. Factually all fat was gained from.... FAT.
elephino wrote:
S. Canaday wrote:
Again the “double whammy” is high fat and high sugar. That is diabetes and obesity epidemic right there. You eat ice cream and its high fat and high sugar...not just the “evil sugar of carbs”. Too much bad cholesterol. And we wonder why heart disease is a leading killer in the US?! Same goes for many highly processed foods.
Actually, you and YMMV agree on that. He has also pointed out that all super-palatable foods are right in the middle zone of about the same calories from fat as from carbs. A Dunkin "sugar donut" has more calories from fat than from carbs. Potato chips also usually have more calories from fat than from carbs. Ice cream, pizza, and junk food all tend to be both high fat and high carb.
One side says the problem is the carbs, the other side says the problem is the fat. They're both right. Or maybe both wrong. -
I went vegan a year before I started running but after four years of running I've gotten down to a 16:21 minute 5K last September from 26 minutes. Looking to break 16 now, just started track speed back up.
No issues with protein or diet I take no protein shakes or supplements just a B12 injection once a month (B12 is not a vegan issue it's a wide spread issue among meat eaters too, read the book Could It Be B12?). I usually run 90 miles a week and I've done some crazy stuff like 160 miles at 6 minute pace, 120 off 6 days and 30km singles a day up 830m elevation a day in 33 Celsius. All in cross country spikes on the roads too. Also ran a 17 minute 5K on the roads barefoot.
Also dead broke but manage to get by on bananas, rice, pasta, oats stuff like that.
That's not very impressive cause Niccolo Fillipazzo is an Italian 13 minute / 1:04 HM guy who runs 180 miles a week in XC spikes as a vegan lol -
I'm in my 30s and celebrated my 'veganniversary' the other day having gone vegan 12 months ago.
I was a regular meat eater, 3 square meals kinda guy running 50-80 MPW.
At first I found I did lose weight as I was not snacking enough. I found I needed to work harder as a vegan to get enough calories in. It took me a while to realise that I just couldn't eat just 3 meals a day so ended up snacking at least once a day (bagels with peanut butter) to provide more consistent energy.
Today, I'm marathon training so in the realm of 80-100 MPW. The only supplement I take is Veg1 which covers B12. I'd recommend getting a cookbook such as Bosh but don't be afraid to supplement the meals with a source of protein as appropriate (tofu, beans, pulses etc.). On the whole veganism has improved my life and my running hasn't suffered either. If you're interested in progression, here are some selected times.
Pre-vegan (12 months ago)
5k: 16:41
10k: 34:49
HM: 75:45
Mara: 2:44
Vegan
5k: 15:49
10k: 33:10
HM: 72:44
Mara: 2:39
