SAD NEWS: "Caster Semenya to miss World Championships after court ruling".

RunRagged wrote:

yes and no.... wrote:

We agree on much more than we disagree on here. For instance, we both agree Semenya is actually a man biologically. We start to disagree on things like Semenya's symptoms being like that of a woman due to the reduction of Testosterone because you seem to be saying well if she wants to be treated like a woman then the symptoms should be considered to that of a woman. But she's not a woman, we both know that. Her symptoms are that of a man going through "andropause", but it's not a gradual transtition over many years. It's happening in a matter of months.

Maybe these athletes are unaware of the increased risk of depression and suicide when testosterone levels plummet, but I certainly am not. I've been subjected to them, unknowingly at the time, when taking accutane as a teenager.

1. My Response vs Yours to Semenya's Complaints About The Effects of Taking Estrogen To Reduce The Male-Level Testosterone That Semenya's Testes Produce

I'm not saying that the unpleasant symptoms Semenya experienced on oral estrogen (BC pills) are "like that of a woman." Clearly, Semenya's body didn't react well to the synthetic or mare-derived estrogen in the BC pills Semenya took largely because Semenya is a biological male. (I say "largely" because exogenous hormones of any kind manufactured by pharmaceutical companies can screw up a person even if said hormones are same-sex, versus cross-sex.)

BC pills are designed to provide female bodies with the amount of estrogen that a female human has when pregnant, because pregnancy - real or pharmaceutically faked - tells the ovaries to shut down and not to produce any more eggs. Males are not designed or meant to be pregnant or to have pregnancy-levels of estrogen in their bodies - ever. So Semenya should NOT have been taking estrogen designed to mimic pregnancy in the first place.

If I had to guess, the abdominal pain Semenya is said to have experienced while on Big Pharma estrogen was Semenya's internal testes saying, "WTF? It's bad enough that a defect of nature caused us to be locked inside you, but the pharmacological abuse you're now subjecting us to really is a bridge too far."

I'm also not trying to underplay the ill effects males experience when their is testosterone is reduced, whether gradually or suddenly. As a heterosexual woman who's had more than a few boyfriends/partners over the course of a long life, and who's given birth to and raised now-grown sons, I really do get how important T is to guys.

Also, when I was a girl, a close adult relative of mine had cancer that required removal of his testicles, which was really horrific for him; and more recently someone I know well with terminal prostate cancer took Lupron and suffered immensely as a result. Plus, I used to work in journalism, and over the course of several decades had the opportunity to interview a number of male combat veterans from both the Vietnam and Iraq wars who all had their dicks and balls blown off. . . So I'm familiar with how crucial T is to male wellbeing.

(If you're not familiar with Lupron, it's a GnRH modulator that in males greatly reduces or entirely eliminates the testicles' ability to produce testosterone.)

And BTW, ovaries also produce testosterone, so women who've had to have their ovaries removed or have gone through menopause are affected by reductions in our natural T-levels too. I personally had a condition that caused me to take Estratest - a combination of estrogen and testosterone - for a number of years.

But what I am saying is that since Semenya is claiming to be a woman and thinks it's Semenya's "human right" to compete as and against women with Semenya's womanhood unquestioned and Semenya's "womanly" physiology entirely unaltered, then when Semenya argues that the IAAF is discriminating against Semenya "as a woman" based on Semenya's right to "run free" as a woman in Semenya's natural state as a woman, the comparator Semenya uses should be women and female physiology, not men and male physiology.

In other words, when speaking of norms, treatments and symptoms that Semenya finds acceptable or unbearable for Semenya to deal with as a woman, Semenya should be comparing Semenya's self to women, not men. Because Semenya's entire case is based on the constantly asserted claim (false though it is) that Semenya "was born a woman, is a woman, will die as a woman" - and that the idea that Semenya is "a biological male" as the IAAF alleges is just plain "nonsense, fiction." (CAS decision, p. 19)

I and many other women feel deeply insulted when biological males like Semenya who claim to be women - "all women" and "100% natural female women" - turn around and whinge that it would be a violation of their human rights as women and "born females" for them to experience any of the physical sensations, pains and disadvantages - hot flushes, night sweats, abdominal pain, weight gain, running slower than males, etc. - that biological females are taught to suck up without a word of complaint because said physical experiences are just part and parcel of being female.

BTW, many aspects of physiology that are normal and routine for one sex would strike members of the other sex as intolerable. For example, many young women who are on T today because they believe they're transgender experience enormous distress when they discover that injecting male levels of T will mean developing male-pattern baldness. Biological males, of course, don't like it when their hairlines recede or their locks fall out. Guys like the actors Yul Brenner, Bruce Willis and Vin Diesel and the musician/rock stars Brian Eno, Phil Collins, Peter Gabriel and Michael Stipe probably didn't exactly jump for joy when their hair fell out. But these fellas - and every other guy out there whose hair has thinned or departed - is expected to take it on the chin and adjust to going bald because baldness is a normal, natural occurrence that happens to males on account of male biology. By contrast, many trans-identified females on T who find they are going bald are now taking to the internet to decry the terrible injustice being done to them due to the T they're choosing to take. "No one told me!" they say, claiming baldness is an affront to their dignity and an abrogation of their human rights.

Ridiculous, right? And offensive to actual biological males, right? I mean, what idiots! And how dare they?

So please try to show some understanding for how ridiculous, deeply offensive and exasperating it is for many of us biological women to hear Semenya's complaints about the hot flushes, night sweats, abdominal pain, nausea and slower running times poor poor Caster experienced when taking BC pills.

Sorry, but this world-renowned, much-lauded "female athlete" who loves to take the podium as one of the world's top-dog women runners and has become mega-famous and mega-rich for doing so simply would not be able to deal for a moment with ordinary female experiences such as menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, menopause and PMS. And no way Caster could cope for an effing second with the symptoms of common female conditions that women put up with as a matter of course like endometriosis, ovarian cysts, uterine fibroids, chronic UTIs, mastitis, yeast infections, uterine prolapse, pelvic inflammatory disease, pudendal neuralgia, childbirth injuries, cervical cancer, breast cancer. . .

paolo78 wrote:

It's unfair to call Semenya a man, as she's been identified as a baby girl at birth, grown as a girl, etc... We don't know exactly where she stands in the DSD spectrum. However, biologically she's much more a male than a female, that's pretty clear. In absence of additonal categories for DSD people, the only thing IAAF could do is to set a limit for testosterone level, and ask whoever wants to compete in the female category to stay within that limit. I don't think it's unfair or unethical to set that limit, as it's the only "measurable" way to distinguish between male and female according to their biological characteristics. IAAF is just indicating the existing options for achieving that, they're not mandating nor suggesting anything. It's a personal decision of the athlete.

Moreover, as pointed by IAAF themselves, the way to achieve that (i.e. the medication) has side effects which are in fact the desired effects of treatment to reduce testosterone levels for 46 XY DSDs who want to be recognized as women, like loss of muscle mass, reduction of haemoglobin concentration, etc... For many 46 XY DSDs individuals with a female gender identity, such treatment is the recognised standard of care. The medication helps them to change their body to better reflect their chosen gender, and i don't think this is considered unfair or unethical when it's done for gender purpose, isn't it? Why is Semenya identifying herself as a woman (gender), willing to compete and win against 46 XX women, but not willing to undergo any treatment that would just make her "more woman" (sorry for the bad term)? If 46 XY DSD people are not willing to take any treatment, they should simply accept not to compete against biological women.

That said, i really don't understand why the regulations only cover events between 400m to the mile. The lack of evidence - which is simply a consequence of the way studies have been conducted - doesn't change the fact that the 10-12% avarage difference in sport performance between men and women is for all events, whatever the duration or the physical effort, and that is mainly (if not only) driven by the different testosterone level. It took 10 years to come to a decision on Semenya and the 800m, in the meantime she has won almost everything. It won't take much before the issue pops up again in an event not covered by the current regulations.

On a side note: does anybody have a theory why the percentage of 46 XY DSDs in elite female sport is much higher than in the general female population?

Doozyofatwosie wrote:

paolo78 wrote:

It's unfair to call Semenya a man, as she's been identified as a baby girl at birth, grown as a girl, etc... We don't know exactly where she stands in the DSD spectrum. However, biologically she's much more a male than a female, that's pretty clear. In absence of additonal categories for DSD people, the only thing IAAF could do is to set a limit for testosterone level, and ask whoever wants to compete in the female category to stay within that limit. I don't think it's unfair or unethical to set that limit, as it's the only "measurable" way to distinguish between male and female according to their biological characteristics. IAAF is just indicating the existing options for achieving that, they're not mandating nor suggesting anything. It's a personal decision of the athlete.

Moreover, as pointed by IAAF themselves, the way to achieve that (i.e. the medication) has side effects which are in fact the desired effects of treatment to reduce testosterone levels for 46 XY DSDs who want to be recognized as women, like loss of muscle mass, reduction of haemoglobin concentration, etc... For many 46 XY DSDs individuals with a female gender identity, such treatment is the recognised standard of care. The medication helps them to change their body to better reflect their chosen gender, and i don't think this is considered unfair or unethical when it's done for gender purpose, isn't it? Why is Semenya identifying herself as a woman (gender), willing to compete and win against 46 XX women, but not willing to undergo any treatment that would just make her "more woman" (sorry for the bad term)? If 46 XY DSD people are not willing to take any treatment, they should simply accept not to compete against biological women.

That said, i really don't understand why the regulations only cover events between 400m to the mile. The lack of evidence - which is simply a consequence of the way studies have been conducted - doesn't change the fact that the 10-12% avarage difference in sport performance between men and women is for all events, whatever the duration or the physical effort, and that is mainly (if not only) driven by the different testosterone level. It took 10 years to come to a decision on Semenya and the 800m, in the meantime she has won almost everything. It won't take much before the issue pops up again in an event not covered by the current regulations.

On a side note: does anybody have a theory why the percentage of 46 XY DSDs in elite female sport is much higher than in the general female population?

It's quite clear why there's a much higher rate of 46 XY DSDs in athletics. They are far more successful at sport at an early age than XX females on far less training. Especially outside of long distance events. The distance events still take a huge amount of time and work to become world class. It is very rare that you get someone like Brazier or Justyn Knight that succeeds quickly on very low mileage. I don't know what kind of training Semenya and the other 46 XYs do but you could see why they would not want to move up in events because it takes more time and mileage that they likely haven't been doing for the majority of their careers. The fact that Semenya beat Scott in the SA 5K championships and still doesn't want to move up is curious. You've dominated the sport since the start of your career...you don't desire a new challenge? Seems pretty questionable to me on all points. I feel no sympathy for them on the grounds of their ethics in light of all the information they now have about their situation.

logician wrote:

IDK..... wrote:

IDK (I don't know): On one hand, I'm sad for Caster, if she was born with too much testosterone to be a female, but not enough to be a male. It's not her fault, and that is really tough. The courts are telling her that she is 'too close' to being male, and so she cannot compete with females. This has got to be really rough.

.

The facts: Semenya is an XY male with pitiable external genitalia due to an accident of biology in the womb, a condition called 5-ARD.

Semenya is NOT an "unusual female."

Semenya is an "unfortunate male."

AGAIN, Semenya IS IN NO WAY A FEMALE. She is 100% male, with undeveloped genitals. FULL STOP.

The IAAF failed to get these simple facts to the media--the NYtimes and everyone else painted this as an unusual female with elevated testosterone. The IAAF should have been shouting from the rooftops since 2009 that Semenya is not an "unusual female" but an "unfortunate male." Why they did not take this path--if they knew she was XY 5-ARD-- I can not understand. It led to an unnecessary 10 year loss for true female athletes. This legal battle should have been done in 2010, not 2020.

AGAIN: Semenya is 100% male. She is NOT a female in any biological sense.

A poster a few months ago whose name I can not recall did a great job of researching and presenting her condition of 5-ARD.

The issue is clouded by the SEPARATE issue of MTF transgenders wanting to participate in women's' sport

This does NOT mean Semenya is to be ridiculed or mistreated in any way. She is to be pitied as a biological unfortunate and treated with nothing but compassion. She can compete with men, or follow the rules like any other MTF transgender wishing to compete as a woman.

I am Sam wrote:

zxcvzcvx wrote:

The IAAF ended up with a peculiar rule in which DSD athletes are disallowed only from 400 through 1500m, which is absurd if you look at the performance lists for every track and field event, where there is a consistent 10+% gap between men and women. Here the Swiss court pronounces only that Semenya cannot compete in the 800m at World's while the appeal is underway. It does not pronounce judgment on the case. We just do not know anywhere near as much about Semenya's physiology as some here have said. What came out in 2009 was mere hearsay. The only thing we see is the obvious phenotype, performance, and what the IAAF let slip recently, that Semenya, Niyonsaba, and Wambui are 46 XY DSD cases. That slip, however, is quite telling in indicating that the default is not to let them run in women's races simply because they were raised as girls, but rather to let them run in men's races because they are chromosomally male, if not fully developed as such. No international sports federation can allow mere gender choice to be the determinant of gender as long as there will be a category of women's events; nor can they let athletes of unlimited testosterone, whether natural or artificial into women's events, not even if the athletes had that high testosterone in the developing years but not currently. It simply means that in the presence of such cases, women by nature will lose most women's events.

+ 1000...He is a man

Run007xx wrote:

IDK..... wrote:

IDK (I don't know): On one hand, I'm sad for Caster, if she was born with too much testosterone to be a female, but not enough to be a male. It's not her fault, and that is really tough. The courts are telling her that she is 'too close' to being male, and so she cannot compete with females. This has got to be really rough.

On the other hand, I'm happy for the millions of females born within 'normal' ranges of hormones to compete against each other, rather than compete against someone who is practically male.

In the not-so-distant-future we will probably see categories set by testosterone levels, rather than by gender.

You’re RIGHT... you DON’T know... anything about this.

She was not just some girl born with high testosterone. She was born A BOY (with XY chromosomes like every other BOY). And her XY chromosomes - while giving her testosterone levels consistent with other boys/men - didn’t (for whatever reason) produce a penis or external testes.

I’m a dude, and I ran a 1:58 in high school. Because this time wasn’t that great for a male runner, I decided not to pursue running much beyond high school. But I’m pretty sure if I decided to make a career out of it - AND CLAIM TO BE FEMALE - I could have run a 1:55, and I could’ve been a world dominating gold medalist too!!! AND HOW WOULD THAT BE FAIR TO WOMEN???

The only people supporting Caster, are those who ignorantly think she’s an XX female who was somehow blessed with high testosterone in the same way that Shaq was blessed with height. She’s NOT... she was born an XY boy without a penis. (Sorry to be explicit, but I think we need to be precise in this discussion.