SAD NEWS: "Caster Semenya to miss World Championships after court ruling".

RunRagged wrote:

forwhatitisworth wrote:

. . .The (women's) 800m itself has had 2 confirmed (Semenya and Niyonsaba) and 1 suspected (Margaret Wambui) already.

. . . These women never asked to be born this way. They aren't making a political statement. They simply want to compete.

Wambui has publicly confirmed that the IAAF's DSD regs apply to her as well. Since these regs do not apply to any XX females with high levels of naturally-occurring testosterone - only to athletes competing as females who have XY chromosomes, testes and no ovaries, male levels of T and male sensitivity to T - athletes who say they're subject to these rules are acknowledging that they too are biological males:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/another-female-olympic-athlete-slams-testosterone-rules-refuses-medication-n1008691

It's true that these athletes "never asked to be born this way." But they are asking - no, they're actually demanding - that they as biological males should be allowed to compete as and against biological females in women's sports because it's their "human right" to do so. Seems pretty political to me.

Semenya's side at the CAS argued that Semenya and other males should be permitted to compete in female sports based solely on their gender identity, not their biology. Males saying they are entitled to do as they want based on their inner feelings - to hell with science, ethics, fair play and the actual females who'll suffer as a result: Seems pretty political to me.

Despite their constant, adamant insistence that they are women and must be accepted and respected as women, all these athletes say there's no way they'd ever consider getting their testes removed. Nope, not for a second; these athletes are such "natural women" that losing their testes is entirely out of the question! This sort of I-want-to-have-my-cake-and-eat-it-too position seems pretty political to me.

All these athletes also argue that having to take birth control pills to reduce their T in order to be allowed to compete as and against females is an unacceptable burden because they don't like the symptoms that come with taking BC pills or having to live without the male levels of T they enjoy due to having male gonads. And they arrogantly make these arguments entirely oblivious of the fact that the "unbearable" physical symptoms of high estrogen and "intolerable" athletic disadvantages of lowered T that they find so objectionable are all things actual women cope with every day as a matter of course - only we're told to shut up and put up with 'em because that's just the female lot in life.

Again, seems pretty political to me.

yes and no.... wrote:

Disingenuous emotive wrote:

So bad. This is a false viewpoint. No one is asking / demanding / forcing these folks take medication. In fact I'd image the IAAF would be quite happy if none of them did.

The IAAF simply put this on the table to give them the opportunity to keep competing in the women's division if they wished (which is something a lot of people are against even with the medication). However no one is forcing that upon anyone. So you can stand down soldier.

The point is the IAAF should not be putting that on the table. It goes against all medical counsel to do so. It is medically unethical and puts the IAAF into serious future jeopardy at being sued, which is a real problem for a federation that doesn't have a lot of money. Semenya, Wambui, etc. have zero right to be competing with women. They are messing this up on every side.

What I'm saying is I stand by them for saying no I'm not going to take drugs to alter my body. I do not stand with them in demanding the right to compete against women. Massive difference there.

Avocado's Number wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

Thanks for posting the Swiss high court's statement about why on 07/29/19 it reversed the stay of the IAAF's XY DSD rules that previously had been been granted to Semenya, and Semenya alone.

The Swiss court says it overturned the stay based on its judgment that the joint appeal made by Semenya and Athletics South Africa contesting the CAS decision announced May 1 will ultimately fail. But to understand why, we need to see what Semenya and ASA actually said in their appeal.

It appears that the Semenya-ASA appeal to the Swiss high court was based on grounds different from the arguments they made when they challenged the IAAF regs before the CAS. But so far as I know, the Semenya-ASA appeal to the Swiss high court has not been released - or even leaked - to the public.

Does anyone know where the text of the Semenya-ASA appeal can be found?

It's possible that you may be able to find the parties' submissions on the court's web site (where I found the decision of July 29, 2019, in French), but I haven't tried to find any of those filings. Based on the court's brief summary of the arguments on appeal, it appears that Semenya limited her grounds to two allegations of substantive (as opposed to procedural) public policy -- first, that the CAS decision violates her rights against impermissible discrimination by upholding this particular IAAF regulation that differentiates on the basis of sex and innate biological differences; second, that the CAS decision violates her rights of personality ("personnalité") and human dignity guaranteed by, among other things, various treaties. The court deals with each of those arguments very summarily. (The court's summary treatment of the decision in Matuzalem is mildly irksome, but I don't recall the details of that case.)

I want to clarify an important point. The court did not hold that the appeal "will ultimately fail." Rather, it held that Semenya (and, to the extent it has standing, ASA) failed to show that the appeal is very likely well-founded ("La condition du caractère très vraisemblablement fondé du recours n'étant pas réalisée"). This appears to be very similar to the standard in U.S. courts generally requiring a showing of "high likelihood of success on the merits" to justify preliminary injunctive relief, including certain stays of lower court judgments. It is, however, a bad sign for Semenya that the court expressly held that, in light of her failure to show a high likelihood of success on the merits, the court did not need to reach questions about the extent to which Semenya is irreparably prejudiced by the CAS decision.

trollism wrote:

yes and no.... wrote:

The point is the IAAF should not be putting that on the table. It goes against all medical counsel to do so. It is medically unethical and puts the IAAF into serious future jeopardy at being sued, which is a real problem for a federation that doesn't have a lot of money. Semenya, Wambui, etc. have zero right to be competing with women. They are messing this up on every side.

What I'm saying is I stand by them for saying no I'm not going to take drugs to alter my body. I do not stand with them in demanding the right to compete against women. Massive difference there.

I'm betting that the IAAF would like a blanket ban on these athletes cheating biological women out of medals and money, but they had to compromise a little in order to get what they've got from the courts.

RunRagged wrote:

yes and no...... wrote:

I stand by Wambui, Semenya and whoever else for not taking the medication. It's absolutely barbaric to ask them to do so. And it still doesn't make it right for them to be competing against women because although they identify as women and grew up being told they were girls they in fact are men with rare disorders that caused their genitalia to stay inside them.

I do take issue with you saying women cope with the equivalent of Wambui, Semenya etc taking this medication. Being a man and having your testosterone levels reduced dramatically does not make you understand the physical symptoms of being a woman suddenly. Reducing a man's testosterone in this way puts them at extremely high risk of depression and suicide. Mandating that they take medication that puts them at risk of suicide is outrageous and it's still absolute BS because they are still men anyway and still have a huge advantage.

The only solution here is to not let men compete with women, period, that's it. No medication to make them closer to the hormone levels of women will actually make them women. IAAF has botched this one big time both for the women and for the intersex athletes.

I wasn't arguing that Semenya and the other XY athletes with with functioning testes and male levels of T who've gone through male puberty should be required or forced to take BC pills or get their testes removed in order to continue competing in women's events. I agree with you that after about age 9-10, males should NOT be able to compete as and against females in sports under any circumstances.

(The only exception I'd perhaps make would be in the case of XY athletes with complete androgen insensitivity; IMO, individual athletes with CAIS should be allowed to argue for their admission into women's sports on a case-by-case basis before a decision-making panel of athletes, physicians and sports scientists who are entirely or predominantly female - by which I mean biologically female.)

The point I was trying to make is that it's disingenuous and hypocritical for athletes like Semenya, Niyonsaba and Wambui to say that they're women who must be allowed to compete as and against women while they simultaneously insist on keeping their male gonads and the male levels of T their male gonads produce.

And when I said that it seemed arrogant and clueless for Semenya to claim that the physical symptoms caused by BC pills were so unbearable and burdensome that they constitute an unacceptable violation of Semenya's human rights, I was referring specifically to the symptoms Semenya complained of in court. From the CAS decision, page 17, section 78:

Ms. Semenya described the negative effects that the testosterone-suppressing medication had on her mental and physical health. Her symptoms included becoming hot and sweating profusely each night and experiencing significant weight gain. She also felt sick (meaning nauseous) constantly, suffered from regular fevers and had constant internal abdominal pain. These symptoms also had an "enormous" effect on her mental state, impeding her mental sharpness and undermining her self-confidence.

In the next sections, Semenya "went on to discuss her athletic performance during the period she was taking testosterone-suppressing medication," noting that the principal effect was that "her times were slower."

Though Semenya wants us all to see Semenya as a woman, Semenya's CAS testimony shows that Semenya is utterly oblivious of the fact that hot flushes, night sweats, weight gain, nausea, fevers and abdominal pain are all common symptoms that the majority of women routinely experience due to our female biology from the time we first menstruate.

(For example, most girls and women experience menstrual and/or ovulation pain every month during our fertile years; and 39% of US females past the age of menarche have chronic pelvic/abdominal pain due to gynecological issues. Frequent or constant nausea is commonly reported by women on birth control pills, and nausea affects the overwhelming majority of women during pregnancy. As for hot flushes, night sweats, and fevers: girls and women experience these regularly due to the normal hormonal fluctuations we go through during our monthly menstrual cycles; we suffer hot flushing and sweating 24/7 for years on end during peri-menopause and menopause; and we also suffer extreme forms of these symptoms after childbirth and miscarriage. And the weight gain Semenya whines about? Gimme a break.)

But whereas Semenya considers it her god-given right as a "100% all-natural woman" not have to suffer any of the disadvantageous discomforts of female biology ever, those of us who truly are female are expected to just put up with the very same unpleasant symptoms - as well as a host of other pains and indignities - as a matter of course. And guess what, the symptoms Semenya moans and groans about often put a damper on our mental sharpness and self-confidence, too.

Re your claim that "reducing a man's testosterone in this way puts them at extremely high risk of depression and suicide": perhaps this is true of men. Or of some men. But it's beside the point in this case because Semenya, Niyonsaba and Wambui don't claim to be men. They all claim to be women, and they want to compete as women against women. So the comparator here should me women, not men.

Also, in neither Semenya's CAS testimony nor all the press interviews given over the years have any of the XY athletes who claim to be women ever once said that being on BC pills would make them depressed or suicidal. You're the one who brought up those topics.

And as it so happens, tens of millions of men who identify as women today have been taking a combo of BC pills androgen blockers for years, which has caused their testosterone to be reduced to a far greater extent than what Semenya, Niyonsaba, Wambui et al would experience on BC pills alone. But these transgender-identified males don't say their drug-induced lowered T causes them to feel depressed and suicidal; on the contrary, they commonly report that they experience wellbeing, ecstasy and sexual thrills instead. There's even a special name for the high they get from altering their natural hormones: "gender euphoria." In fact, these males often say that not taking BC pills - which in the MtF world are known by such names as "titty skittles," "mammary mints" and "life savers" - is what would make them depressive and suicidal.

As to the charge that asking men who identify as women to take BC pills is "barbaric" and medically unsound: the worldwide medical consensus today is that it's 100% medically appropriate for men who identify as women to take BC pills or estrogen in another form (patches, say) along with androgen blockers like spironolactone. As the IAAF pointed out in the Semenya case, for males who claim a gender identity opposite to their sex the standard of care nowadays is to put them on BC pills pronto; indeed, doing so is considered both "gender affirming" and most humane.

(I personally think it's daft and dangerous for anyone to take cross-sex hormones. But in the medical community today, it's widely accepted that males who claim to "feel female" inside should be given BC pills or other estrogens and T-blockers without delay - and that to fail to do so is a dereliction of duty.)