Outrage from women's group after TRANS woman wins Gold Medal

Two different things... wrote:

This is another thread that mixes up two different things— transgender athletes and people with DSD.

Transgender athletes are usually people who are clearly biologically male or female, but identify with a different gender. They may or may not intentionally take steps to alter their biological traits to match a different gender.

Semenya and people with a DSD haven’t made any choice and it’s not a matter of identifying as a gender that doesn’t match their biology. In Semenya’s case, for example, her natural condition is to have a testosterone level that is naturally higher than the highest normal female level, but lower than the lowest normal male level. She would have to dope either to get down to a normal female level or up to a normal male level. It’s a matter of actual biology being messy and variable and not meshing with the binary (either male or female) sex divisions in athletics.

RunRagged wrote:

time2change wrote:

I stand by what I said because Castor didn't make a choice and is a true anomaly. We have never seen anything quite like her in sport. And we certainly don't have to worry about a trove of Castor's taking over women's sports. That is not the case with males who identify as women. That could easily take over.

More than 40 years ago, the world indeed saw another athlete just like Semenya in sport: Austrian alpine skier and women's World Cup champion Erika Schinegger, who through sex chromosome testing shortly before the 1968 winter Olympics was found to be a male with an XY DSD similar to Semenya's.

Schinegger learned of his condition at the same age that Semenya found out about Semenya's condition more than a decade ago. Like Semenya, Schinegger was deeply troubled by the discovery. But whereas Semenya, South African sports officials and SA politicians over the past 10 years have all taken the position that Semenya's gender identity as a woman should take precedence over the fact that Semenya has been scientifically determined to actually be a biological male, in 1968 Schinegger, Austrian sports authorities and Olympic officials took a very different tack by doing the right thing: Schinegger was immediately withdrawn from from women's sports without argument or controversy.

In 1968, it was unthinkable that Schinegger and his team would consider going to court to argue that someone with XY sex chromosomes, functioning testes, male levels of testosterone and no female organs whatsoever somehow had a "human right" to continue competing in women's sports because upon cursory visual inspection at birth his malformed external genitals had caused him to be mistaken for female.

Like the majority of people worldwide with the XY DSD that the IAAF alleges Semenya has - a congenital enzyme deficiency known as 5-ARD - Schinegger decided to live the rest of his life as a man once he learned about his condition. He underwent genital surgery to relocate his testicles and repair his penile defect, which allowed him to father a child.

No one faults Semenya for being a person with XY sex chromosomes and a DSD that caused Semenya to be mis-sexed at birth. It's true that "Caster didn't make a choice" about what happened in utero, which is why Semenya has long had the world's sympathy - and continues to be given the benefit of the doubt and more by millions of people around the world even today.

But for 10 years now, Semenya and South African authorities all have known about Semenya having XY chromosomes, testes, and male levels of testosterone that give Semenya the same athletic advantages as other biological males - and for all that time, Semenya has indeed made a choice. It's just the not the choice many people consider to be the ethical one.

https://youtu.be/8mgQ97TKxc8

Armstronglivs wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

We're nowhere near not having women's sports. Off the top of my head, there are a couple of HS sprinters in Connecticut, a D-2 hurdler and a Canadian masters cyclist. I'm not aware of even one MTF transgender distance runner in either HS, college or the pro ranks. Treated transgenders have been eligible to compete in the Olympics since 2004, but this weightlifter would be the first.

In the U.S., transgenders, both MTF and FTM, are about .6% of the population. There is no way athletes out of such a small population are going to take over women's sports. When Renee Richards started playing women's tennis in the 70's, there were people predicting a wave of transgenders taking over the sport, but there hasn't been even one transgender to play on the women's tour since then.

Yet those that are competing are routinely beating the women. You are confusing numbers participating with those who reach the podium. Trans and DSD males are a small part of the population but the incidence competing in women's sports is estimated to be far greater - for quite obvious reasons. Where they are competing they are generally winning. You quote Renee Richards: she has lately said she is now opposed to trans women competing in women's sports because the advantage is unfair.

Leave ethical judgements home wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

More than 40 years ago, the world indeed saw another athlete just like Semenya in sport: Austrian alpine skier and women's World Cup champion Erika Schinegger, who through sex chromosome testing shortly before the 1968 winter Olympics was found to be a male with an XY DSD similar to Semenya's.

Schinegger learned of his condition at the same age that Semenya found out about Semenya's condition more than a decade ago. Like Semenya, Schinegger was deeply troubled by the discovery. But whereas Semenya, South African sports officials and SA politicians over the past 10 years have all taken the position that Semenya's gender identity as a woman should take precedence over the fact that Semenya has been scientifically determined to actually be a biological male, in 1968 Schinegger, Austrian sports authorities and Olympic officials took a very different tack by doing the right thing: Schinegger was immediately withdrawn from from women's sports without argument or controversy.

In 1968, it was unthinkable that Schinegger and his team would consider going to court to argue that someone with XY sex chromosomes, functioning testes, male levels of testosterone and no female organs whatsoever somehow had a "human right" to continue competing in women's sports because upon cursory visual inspection at birth his malformed external genitals had caused him to be mistaken for female.

Like the majority of people worldwide with the XY DSD that the IAAF alleges Semenya has - a congenital enzyme deficiency known as 5-ARD - Schinegger decided to live the rest of his life as a man once he learned about his condition. He underwent genital surgery to relocate his testicles and repair his penile defect, which allowed him to father a child.

No one faults Semenya for being a person with XY sex chromosomes and a DSD that caused Semenya to be mis-sexed at birth. It's true that "Caster didn't make a choice" about what happened in utero, which is why Semenya has long had the world's sympathy - and continues to be given the benefit of the doubt and more by millions of people around the world even today.

But for 10 years now, Semenya and South African authorities all have known about Semenya having XY chromosomes, testes, and male levels of testosterone that give Semenya the same athletic advantages as other biological males - and for all that time, Semenya has indeed made a choice. It's just the not the choice many people consider to be the ethical one.

https://youtu.be/8mgQ97TKxc8

You are right. Many people would not consider it to be the ethical one. But people have always been quick to tell other people what their ethical choices should be. More interesting is what choice people would actually make if they were in the same situation. And I think many would choose to go the Semenya route.

Semenya received a bad draw in the lottery of life. Imagine being born a male, but not having a penis and being raised a girl, and then later being told you are not a girl? Many people would feel pretty bitter about that — at God, at life, at every person who didn’t have to deal with such a rotten circumstance, at the world. Why sacrifice your own bit of happiness for them? You are the one that had to feel differently your entire life. You are the one that got the bad draw. F@#$ everybody else.

That may not be the “ethical” attitude, but it is a very human one, and I would bet that many people being critical of Semenya’s choices would make the same ones.

Semenya should not be allowed to race with XX women because it is unfair and if allowed would ultimately destroy women’s sports. You can’t have a division for people who have a biological disadvantage and then allow people without that biological disadvantage to participate in it. Any objective person can see that it is absurd and defies logic. But I get why Semenya is fighting it. I hope she loses, but I also hope she is able to find peace with it.