THREE Bowerman guys won't be going to Worlds because they don't have the standard

He was also helping to push the pace out front including the group of 3 that had separated from the rest of the field. He also knew that he was not good enough to make a complete break from Lemong and Chelimo without paying a heavy price later and he did kick well as mentioned. All things considered, it was a gutsy/valiant effort on his part.

Maybe he should have shared the pacing duties with Chelimo more though. Hard to say. As Masback pointed out, it was their uneven pace--surging and then slowing down-- that allowed the main pack to catch up and probably cost Woody the standard in the process

I have no idea why you wouldn't want to run at world standard pace if you don't have the standard? Why race to win? I mean at least Ben True made sure to go out and blaze one fast 5k before USAs. Sucks he may not go but I think he is battling an injury.

Kev2 wrote:

Maybe he should have shared the pacing duties with Chelimo more though. Hard to say. As Masback pointed out, it was their uneven pace--surging and then slowing down-- that allowed the main pack to catch up and probably cost Woody the standard in the process

If he would have shared the pacing duties it probably would have been a more even pace. It seemed like every time Chelimo tried to wave him around and he refused Chelimo said "screw you guys" and surged.

The fact that he hung on and kicked for third at the end was an undeniably gutsy performance. Helping Chelimo push the pace would have been gutsy as well. He can reflect on his gutsy performance while he watches Drew Hunter race at worlds.

one-two-three wrote:

The other thread is praising the coaching of Bowerman but how about some criticism.

THREE guys Woody Kincaid in 5k , Josh Thompson in 15 and Lopez Lomong in 5k won't go to Worlds in those events as they do not have the standard.

Isn't the point to go to Worlds?

Club is known for not racing enough.

I don't understand? You say they won and they be going to Worlds? When you use Ebonics it sounds like a good thing?

Kev2 wrote:

As Masback pointed out, it was their uneven pace--surging and then slowing down-- that allowed the main pack to catch up and probably cost Woody the standard in the process

I disagreed with Masback in this regard. I believe it to be true if they slowed down to pace (65's) , but they slowed to 70's. Guys of sub 13:30 ability had to feel like a couple 70's were a complete recovery pace.

I was a little over 14 min guy and if a 74-75 was mixed in I felt fresh as could be after. Maybe someone of

Opinionated guy wrote:

Kev2 wrote:

As Masback pointed out, it was their uneven pace--surging and then slowing down-- that allowed the main pack to catch up and probably cost Woody the standard in the process

I disagreed with Masback in this regard. I believe it to be true if they slowed down to pace (65's) , but they slowed to 70's. Guys of sub 13:30 ability had to feel like a couple 70's were a complete recovery pace.

I was a little over 14 min guy and if a 74-75 was mixed in I felt fresh as could be after. Maybe someone of

I must of cut off the end of the sentence:

"Maybe someone of mid 13:30's or better can voice their opinion if they can recover after a couple of 70's mid-race."

NERunner053 wrote:

Just really surprised everybody else who didn't have the standard hung back right away. They knew the pace was fast but I feel like if your intent was to run fast you might not have noticed how quick it actually was. Lopez could have also helped his teammate get the standard. When Chelimo swung wide to let them both by Lopez slowed even more and stayed behind Chelimo. Woody found himself in the lead & didn't know what to do so kept the pace slow. It's like they didn't communicate about getting to the standard. I thought he ran a gutsy race. He showed that he wanted the standard, going with Chelimo. If you would have showed me the field & said three guys jumped out fast, I would not have guessed he would be up there.

I don't think that "your intent to run fast" ever affects how hard you perceive the pace to be.

I like Paul Chelimo wrote:

He can reflect on his gutsy performance while he watches Drew Hunter race at worlds.

Yup. Should have pushed for 65s instead of 72s when Chelimo got tired of leading.

Chelimo flew off the starting line. It looked easy for him, but go back and watch how hard Woody appeared to be running in that first 200. 57 first lap is insane, even for 13:30-40 guys even if they thought they could run 13:21.

I did think it was strange that Woody didn't help keep the pace going once Chelimo backed off, but he had a decision to make- 1) try to nail the standard or 2) self preservation and try to close well and No 2 is absolutely the easy way out that most would choose. He was probably hurting miserably at that point.

I'm guessing he didn't think that nobody else would pick it up but that's how it went and those ultra slow laps allowed him to recover enough to close well for the meaningless 3rd place finish.

But I at least give him some props for going w/ Chelimo at that suicidal pace early.

Most people on this thread are not accounting for their hindsight. We all now know that Chelimo was not going to retake the lead, even if the pace slowed enough to let others back in the race. We didn't know that at the time.

Obviously from Kincaid's perspective the best outcome is a top 3 finish with the WC standard. Once he was handed the lead, he had two choices: continue running sub-PR pace with two clearly superior athletes on his back. This has the very big risk that he would implode.

Or he could slow, gather his resources, and wait for either: a) Chelimo or Lopez to take the pace back over, on the assumption that they would not want the pack to catch up, or b) once the chase pack catches, somebody else would start a long kick early enough to still get under the standard. This has the risk that neither happens.

Which risk was higher? Without hindsight, who the hell knows. What can we say with some certainty? If Kincaid kept running 65s and 66s once he was forced into the lead, the odds that Chelimo would retake the lead were very, very low.

Also, with regards to the criticism that he should have been out chasing the standard prior to USATF. Look at Shannon Rowbury. With the benefit of hindsight, it seems like a mistake for her to have chased the standard. She would have been better off training! She would have had a better chance at making the worlds team by hoping the pace would be good enough at USATF, and it was! Why was she out running a hard 5K two weeks out! What a bad decision! (For the sarcasm-impaired, I'm saying this facetiously.) If Kincaid had been out racing in the month leading up to USATF, there is the risk that he wouldn't have been as ready as he obviously was. Nobody except his coach and the athlete himself have any idea how to measure this risk.

Southern Pride wrote:

What happens when you never race.

This.

They are all focused on their magic talent and forget to showcase it.

:-)

But the entire point of the race for Kincaid should have been the qualify to the WC team!

He's obviously not going to beat Chelimo or Lomong in a last lap kick (sorry Woody!) so getting the standard is the only thing he should be thinking about. Either he gets the standard and has a chance to go to the WCs or he doesn't and gives himself zero chance.

If you think about your situation, it should have been obvious to him after 200-300m that neither Chelimo or Lomong ere interested in setting the pace so he should have taken over. He jogged around the track at recovery pace for several laps. He didn't miss the standard by much so there was time to realize that and start clicking off 66-67 laps.

Why aren't you guys insulting the other 15 guys in the race who don't have the standard? They all should have gone at pace as long as they could have.

A bunch of them went to Boston indoors and Sean McGorty got the standard...

Lopez is a free loader.

NEVER pushed the pace in the 10k or 5k. Just drafted, relying on his kick.

What kind of teammate is that?

Only wears the Bowerman Jersey in name.

One thing I'd like to point out is that Woody's PR is low 13 teens from BU a few years ago. For some reason Letsrun doesn't count these, but saying he was on "sub PR pace" is disingenuous at best. Similar to recaps from Heusden saying that Ches "finally broke his 5K PR from his freshman year" as if he didn't run faster this winter.

Face Farter wrote:

One thing I'd like to point out is that Woody's PR is low 13 teens from BU a few years ago. For some reason Letsrun doesn't count these, but saying he was on "sub PR pace" is disingenuous at best. Similar to recaps from Heusden saying that Ches "finally broke his 5K PR from his freshman year" as if he didn't run faster this winter.

Didn't he go through the mile in around 4:08? That's certainly sub PR pace.

I like Paul Chelimo wrote:

Kev2 wrote:

Maybe he should have shared the pacing duties with Chelimo more though. Hard to say. As Masback pointed out, it was their uneven pace--surging and then slowing down-- that allowed the main pack to catch up and probably cost Woody the standard in the process

If he would have shared the pacing duties it probably would have been a more even pace. It seemed like every time Chelimo tried to wave him around and he refused Chelimo said "screw you guys" and surged.

The fact that he hung on and kicked for third at the end was an undeniably gutsy performance. Helping Chelimo push the pace would have been gutsy as well. He can reflect on his gutsy performance while he watches Drew Hunter race at worlds.

gutsy performance, aided by pushing mead which allowed him to pass on the inside lane