Your posts are simply white noise. The main thing about Kenyan running is that they account for 40% of all doping violations in world athletics for the last year. That says everything about the genuineness of their "success". There was no 'golden age' of clean Kenyan running. Your case is so bad you persuade only yourself.
Hey Army! 2 world records from Kenyans before 1980! (after it was told you ten times that 10 is correct) - wonderful contribution to the forum. As so often. Good that you added the 880y in your wonderful statistics. Also the 3 Miles was a popular distance in the 1970s. But that you missed the 3/4 Mile really is disappointing and makes your list almost meaningless.
Some calculation for you (don't ask how this is done, I know, 4th grade is long ago for you): Kenya has won 55% of the Gold medals at the Commonwealth Games (66, 70, 74, 78) and 41.7% of all the medals (just an info for you: your beloved New Zealand and also Australia, England, Scotland, Tanzania are part of the Commonwealth).
Another info you will like Army: at the 1982 and 1990 Commonwealth Games, Kenya's medals in the track distance events: 3 - 6 - 2 (1986 Kenya boycotted the games).
You also will like: Behind Great Britain, Kenya was the 2nd most successful nation at the 84 Olympics and in Seoul 88 they have won 4 - 1 - 1 medals just in the track distances. But - hey - New Zealand has had a 12th place in the marathon. And if Peter Snell would not have prefered to stop with athletics in 1965 he definitely would have won the 8 and 15.
And, no, a 16 year period which includes obviously 4 Olympic Games (obviously for anybody apart from you) for sure is not meaningless. But we can change the period to 1964 - 1984 or 1964 - 1989, or 1964 - 1991 (7 Olympic Games, 2 Kenyan boycotts). Or we can start in 1968, or in 1972 if you prefer. I know, you think the only fair period would start in 1896 when the Olympics and international athletics in general were a really big thing in Kenya.
The amount of nonsense which you have produced in this single thread tops anything and makes even Coevett looking not that stupid anymore (Clarke IS faster than Keino (and not seeing that then Keino also is faster than Clarke) because of "13.16" > "13.24" ignoring that Keino has beaten Clarke in 64, 66, 68, 70 at the BIG Championship over 5000m, ignoring that Keino's 1500m+5000m time is faster than Clarke's, ignoring that both of them have not run the 110m hurdles and so on...).
In this thread you presented yourself as the ultimate idiot. I knew before that your stupidity and your ignorance are limitless (almost everybody is doping, non Kenyans are mostly trying to succeed legitimately and so on...), but to get it presented like this in almost any post of yours is satisfying in some way. But it's also hurting in some way.
Was this success as well as the enormous success in Cross Country in the 1980s (for most observers, the men's Cross Country world championships was always one of the most prestigious races of the season in long distance running) only the result of doping? If you say yes, then please explain this.
Any comments on the latest Kenyan doping bust? It would appear any superiority is the superior ability to take a absolute truck load of drugs.
40% or something like that of the worlds fastest Marathon runners coming from a small part of some country can't be explained solely by doping. Just childish and biased thinking of yours.
40% of doping busts in global athletics in the last year were Kenyans. What were you saying about "40% of the worlds fastest marathon runners" coming from Kenya?
I am never in agreement with you. You aren't bright enough to see that. That we are not debating is because a propagandist like yourself doesn't debate, you simply propagandize.
I haven't named a more successful country than Kenya not because I am unable to but because I am uninterested in that claim. What I have argued is that Kenyan success before 1980 is nothing like you or slowwer have said it is. You aren't intelligent enough to see that is a separate question.
I guess that explains why I think you are always wrong.
For example, I did not argue anything about Kenya before 1980. That is solely "slowwer"'s claim and argument. All I did was watch in silent amusement as both you and Coevett protested too much, while both simultaneously intellectually unable to nominate any alternative candidate country that was better -- by any definition of success. You both essentially argued "nuh-uh" (how stupid is that?), while selecting Olympic Gold medals (how stupid is that?), and marathons (how stupid is that?) as your personal cherry-picked gold standard metrics of "successful country on the track between 1964-1979".
If you want to debate with me, my argument starts in 1981, in Madrid, Spain, at the Hipódromo de la Zarzuela on March 28, 1981, and it is an argument, not just about Kenya, but also Ethiopia.
No, I don't want to debate with you. You don't debate; you propagandize.
What a pointless thread this has become. It has been taken over by those who seek to describe some sort of "golden age" in Kenyan running that is somehow completely disconnected from the fact it has become one of the very worst doping nations in the sport and is currently leading the world for doping violations. It makes the argument of "genetic advantage" utterly risible. Cheating has been shown to be their advantage.
I guess that explains why I think you are always wrong.
For example, I did not argue anything about Kenya before 1980. That is solely "slowwer"'s claim and argument. All I did was watch in silent amusement as both you and Coevett protested too much, while both simultaneously intellectually unable to nominate any alternative candidate country that was better -- by any definition of success. You both essentially argued "nuh-uh" (how stupid is that?), while selecting Olympic Gold medals (how stupid is that?), and marathons (how stupid is that?) as your personal cherry-picked gold standard metrics of "successful country on the track between 1964-1979".
If you want to debate with me, my argument starts in 1981, in Madrid, Spain, at the Hipódromo de la Zarzuela on March 28, 1981, and it is an argument, not just about Kenya, but also Ethiopia.
No, I don't want to debate with you. You don't debate; you propagandize.
More self projection. You make it sound like you have a choice.
Keep the entertainment coming, by saying "nuh-uh", as you stomp your feet and hold your breath.
What a pointless thread this has become. It has been taken over by those who seek to describe some sort of "golden age" in Kenyan running that is somehow completely disconnected from the fact it has become one of the very worst doping nations in the sport and is currently leading the world for doping violations. It makes the argument of "genetic advantage" utterly risible. Cheating has been shown to be their advantage.
It was pointless from the start once the subject line presented a false dichotomy with no basis, by ignoring a half dozen other factors like a life at altitude and the basic physical fact that mature Kenyans are 20-40 pounds lighter than sea-level Americans/Europeans. But it has attracted two court jesters in "I'm not a racist" Coevett, and the travelling preacher Armstronglivs.
But maybe you are right now that the depth of top talent displayed from East Africa, as far back as the '80s, if not further, is "completely disconnected" to the recent "doping problem" in Kenya.
Note that in recent years, the quality of the busts have dropped, with more "whereabouts" violations, and lowering the bar with unproven substances like meldonium and Triamcinolone acetonide. Do you think that East African success in the '80s was based on Triamcinolone acetonide? These formed about half the positives in Kenya in 2022, and before 2021, the substance was legal out of competition.
Both Kip Keino himself, and his manager, were involved in corruption scandals.
Charles Mukora was not only Keino's coach but also head coach of the 1968 Olympic team. He was expelled from the IOC in 1999 for taking bribes for votes.
Former Kenyan Olympic chief and International Olympic Committee (IOC) member Charles Mukora, who was forced to resign from the IOC after the Salt Lake Winter Olympic bribery scandal has died aged 83, the Kenyan Olympic commit...
And of course Keino himself was arrested for stealing millions of dollars he was supposed to allot to talented young Kenyan runners, but got off after corrupt Kenyan parliamentarians intervened.
Two Kenyan Members of Parliament (MP) have urged the country’s President Uhuru Kenyatta to pardon former Kenyan National Olympic Committee (NOCK) chai...
Sorry, I forgot sometimes your posts are loosely based on true events, and just the exaggerations (i.e. millions of dollars) are fabricated.
Do you at least see now that it is not "millions of dollars"? Will you stop with that particular fabrication, or will we suffer seeing it the next time around?
In any case, bringing it back to this thread, what would this have to do with an athlete and his performances more than 50 years ago in the 1960s, or doping, or the event of the marathon?
In the interest of consistency, do you believe corruption scandal is something unique to Kenya? Did you know that World Athletics President Sebastien Coe was multiply accused of being involved in IAAF corruption scandals? Putting aside his previous position of ethics chair at FIFA in light of their scandals, allegations of involvement with the IAAF/Russian doping and coverups, and being grilled by UK Parliamentary MPs, he appeared in French courts to defend accusations of corruption for London, Doha, and Eugene bids, where we also learned that there were two payments of $3.5 million which exchanged hands during the 2017 bid. Does this cause you to start questioning Coe's athletic career, and by national extension Ovett, and Cram? GB dominance in the '80s was also due to doping?
What a pointless thread this has become. It has been taken over by those who seek to describe some sort of "golden age" in Kenyan running that is somehow completely disconnected from the fact it has become one of the very worst doping nations in the sport and is currently leading the world for doping violations. It makes the argument of "genetic advantage" utterly risible. Cheating has been shown to be their advantage.
It was pointless from the start once the subject line presented a false dichotomy with no basis, by ignoring a half dozen other factors like a life at altitude and the basic physical fact that mature Kenyans are 20-40 pounds lighter than sea-level Americans/Europeans. But it has attracted two court jesters in "I'm not a racist" Coevett, and the travelling preacher Armstronglivs.
But maybe you are right now that the depth of top talent displayed from East Africa, as far back as the '80s, if not further, is "completely disconnected" to the recent "doping problem" in Kenya.
Note that in recent years, the quality of the busts have dropped, with more "whereabouts" violations, and lowering the bar with unproven substances like meldonium and Triamcinolone acetonide. Do you think that East African success in the '80s was based on Triamcinolone acetonide? These formed about half the positives in Kenya in 2022, and before 2021, the substance was legal out of competition.
Doping was known to be present in the '56 Olympics. So how do you know that drugs weren't available in the late '60s and '70's when Kenya entered running?
Sorry, I forgot sometimes your posts are loosely based on true events, and just the exaggerations (i.e. millions of dollars) are fabricated.
Do you at least see now that it is not "millions of dollars"? Will you stop with that particular fabrication, or will we suffer seeing it the next time around?
In any case, bringing it back to this thread, what would this have to do with an athlete and his performances more than 50 years ago in the 1960s, or doping, or the event of the marathon?
In the interest of consistency, do you believe corruption scandal is something unique to Kenya? Did you know that World Athletics President Sebastien Coe was multiply accused of being involved in IAAF corruption scandals? Putting aside his previous position of ethics chair at FIFA in light of their scandals, allegations of involvement with the IAAF/Russian doping and coverups, and being grilled by UK Parliamentary MPs, he appeared in French courts to defend accusations of corruption for London, Doha, and Eugene bids, where we also learned that there were two payments of $3.5 million which exchanged hands during the 2017 bid. Does this cause you to start questioning Coe's athletic career, and by national extension Ovett, and Cram? GB dominance in the '80s was also due to doping?
So half a million in respect of Keino (and "not millions") means it can't be embezzlement? I guess that's like being only a "little bit doped".
Sorry, I forgot sometimes your posts are loosely based on true events, and just the exaggerations (i.e. millions of dollars) are fabricated.
Do you at least see now that it is not "millions of dollars"? Will you stop with that particular fabrication, or will we suffer seeing it the next time around?
In any case, bringing it back to this thread, what would this have to do with an athlete and his performances more than 50 years ago in the 1960s, or doping, or the event of the marathon?
In the interest of consistency, do you believe corruption scandal is something unique to Kenya? Did you know that World Athletics President Sebastien Coe was multiply accused of being involved in IAAF corruption scandals? Putting aside his previous position of ethics chair at FIFA in light of their scandals, allegations of involvement with the IAAF/Russian doping and coverups, and being grilled by UK Parliamentary MPs, he appeared in French courts to defend accusations of corruption for London, Doha, and Eugene bids, where we also learned that there were two payments of $3.5 million which exchanged hands during the 2017 bid. Does this cause you to start questioning Coe's athletic career, and by national extension Ovett, and Cram? GB dominance in the '80s was also due to doping?
When was Coe arrested and charged with corruption - since you think he was in the same situation as Keino?
This post was edited 45 seconds after it was posted.
Doping was known to be present in the '56 Olympics. So how do you know that drugs weren't available in the late '60s and '70's when Kenya entered running?
Again with the vague passive voice without specificity. What was known exactly? Where was it known to be present in the 1956 Olympics? Which country? Which Olympic sport? In athletics, 1956 track and road times are comparatively slow.
You never address the fundamental contradiction. The only way to conclude drugs work for Africans is to accept that they don't really work for non-Africans. For some magical reason Africans are high responders while non-Africans are non-responders.
What is known is that drugs were available worldwide, and known to be heavily used in Europe and Russia and China and America.
What I don't know is if Kenya or Ethiopia had the financial resources and the infrastructure (e.g. reliable electricity and refrigeration) to fund and support doping their athletes, on the scale necessary to significantly out-dope these richer countries, some with national support. Seems highly unlikely.
It was pointless from the start once the subject line presented a false dichotomy with no basis, by ignoring a half dozen other factors like a life at altitude and the basic physical fact that mature Kenyans are 20-40 pounds lighter than sea-level Americans/Europeans. But it has attracted two court jesters in "I'm not a racist" Coevett, and the travelling preacher Armstronglivs.
But maybe you are right now that the depth of top talent displayed from East Africa, as far back as the '80s, if not further, is "completely disconnected" to the recent "doping problem" in Kenya.
Note that in recent years, the quality of the busts have dropped, with more "whereabouts" violations, and lowering the bar with unproven substances like meldonium and Triamcinolone acetonide. Do you think that East African success in the '80s was based on Triamcinolone acetonide? These formed about half the positives in Kenya in 2022, and before 2021, the substance was legal out of competition.
Doping was known to be present in the '56 Olympics. So how do you know that drugs weren't available in the late '60s and '70's when Kenya entered running?
So drugs were available when New Zealand was winning gold medals. Interesting.
Doping was known to be present in the '56 Olympics. So how do you know that drugs weren't available in the late '60s and '70's when Kenya entered running?
Again with the vague passive voice without specificity. What was known exactly? Where was it known to be present in the 1956 Olympics? Which country? Which Olympic sport? In athletics, 1956 track and road times are comparatively slow.
You never address the fundamental contradiction. The only way to conclude drugs work for Africans is to accept that they don't really work for non-Africans. For some magical reason Africans are high responders while non-Africans are non-responders.
What is known is that drugs were available worldwide, and known to be heavily used in Europe and Russia and China and America.
What I don't know is if Kenya or Ethiopia had the financial resources and the infrastructure (e.g. reliable electricity and refrigeration) to fund and support doping their athletes, on the scale necessary to significantly out-dope these richer countries, some with national support. Seems highly unlikely.
Can you please explicitly state your absurd hidden assumption - that all countries dope equally?
So drugs were heavily used in Europe? Yet you even attempt to whitewash the GDR of any doping.
Can you please explicitly state your absurd hidden assumption - that all countries dope equally?
So drugs were heavily used in Europe? Yet you even attempt to whitewash the GDR of any doping.
OK. That is absurd, but none of those are my assumptions. For example, the GDR is part of what I mean by heavily used drugs in Europe. But we know of so much more. No assumptions required.
My explicit assumption is that doping can vary widely and unequally across many nations and all races, both African and non-African, changing over time, but it surely exists in non-African countries, some worse than Kenya, and some not.
Zealots like "Armstronglivs" tell me that I'm wrong because athletes know better than me and that athletes wouldn't dope if it didn't work, and that 60% of the AIU's positive tests last year came from non-Kenyans. These positives are not coming from Ethiopia or Uganda, so it must be coming from a lot of non-African countries. Who is outperforming the Kenyans? Oh right -- Jakob and Jake have been doing well in 2022.
I don't make too many assumptions about the varying existance of non-African doping because a lot of the data has been made public, both officially and unofficially. WADA publishes annual reports, and the IAAF has published no less than three blood doping studies spanning 2001-2008, and the WCA in 2011 and 2013, and the Australian "scientists" infamously analyzed a blood database spanning 12 years and 5000+ athletes. These were all fairly consistent with each other.
In the last 40 years, no country has doped their athletes more than Russia. Spain and Morocco are also famous for doping. Morocco has had limited success, but Spain has not. WADA tells us every year that the countries of China and India lead in doping busts. Surely everyone remembers in 2013 when WADA reported that in Athletics, Turkey had 53 doping busts, and Russia had 40 doping busts.
Getting back to the Australian "scientists", recall their finding that Kenyan and Ethiopian blood doping was below the global average. So much for the EPO speculation fueling East African success. They also found that the marathon was the least suspicious distance event by far for blood doping. So much for the notion that EPO helps the marathon by 10 minutes. This was all made public by the Sunday Times.
But what are you saying about me whitewashing GDR doping? My explicit assumption is that GDR doped their athletes heavily -- both men and women, across the board. But unlike populations born and raised at altitude, the GDR, like Russia, and China, did not manage to find much success with their men, especially in distance events. They could only succeed with the women, in field events, in sprint events, and the shorter distance events.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
Imagine the things you could have done in the literal months you have spent here repeating the same old 'arguments' that nobody except you can even make sense of, all to 'prove' that EPO and doping in general doesn't work - a proposition that probably only you and a handful of people in the entire world take seriously?
