I wasn't banned. Don't be so gullible or dishonest. I don't need protection as I always post according to the "don't be a dick" guidelines.
I did step back and watched in amusement as you and Armstronglivs failed to name a country more successful than Kenyan, even before East African World domination in Cross Country, and long before EPO.
From Running Magazine. I guess the data doesn't lie.
Over the course of one year, 40 per cent of all the [positive drug tests] recorded in global athletics are in Kenya,” World Athletics (WA) president Seb Coe said following a 2022 WA council meeting. Coe added that WA has been eyeing the ever-growing doping issues in Kenya for some time, and he and his team seriously considered issuing an outright ban of all Kenyan athletes until the problem was sorted.
Data doesn't lie, but this isn't prevalence data, nor performance data.
Again, the existence of doping, and doping problem, in Kenya was never in doubt. A 2017 WADA funded study shed some light on some of the reasons. But make no mistake, the absolute numbers will be large because the pool of Kenyan athletes tested are so large to begin with -- for reasons which may or may not include doping (subject of this thread).
My bigger interest is performance. Can you connect positive tests to performance? For example, how have the remaining 60% of positive drug tested athletes performed compared to Kenyan athletes? Surely we should be able to see the emporer's clothes from a pool of 60%.
And can we yet conclude rates of prevelance by country from proportions of positive tests? Don't fall into the trap of counting apples to conclude an orange. In another thread, I showed with more detail how, when we assume the same "average" prevalence, we must still predict a high number of Kenyan positives by the sheer fact that there are so many talented Kenyans in the testing pools and on the podiums. In that thread, jacksprat gave the example of sub-2:10 marathon runners. Of the 1281 runners, 41.5% (532) of them were Kenyan. If we assume Kenyan doping prevalence is the same as the world average, then from this group, we should predict ~40% of positive tests coming from Kenyans -- again, for the same average prevalence rate -- by virtue of the fact that 532 out of 1281 athletes are Kenyan.
In that example, sub-2:10 was a rather generous cutoff, permitting many non-Africans who would not make higher performance cutoffs. When I looked at "top" performers post-1990 through to 2018, relative to pre-EPO benchmarks (2:07:11), before the effect of new shoes, Kenyans accounted for 61% of the performance result in the marathon, and, when de-duplicated, 56% across the six distance events. Ethiopians accounted for 28% and 22%, respectively. The rest of the non-African world, throwing in South Africa, for those 28 years covering the EPO-era, accounted for just 6%, and 8%, respectively, in this era of a globally available, globally untestable and the largely undetectable, presumed powerful, endurance drug. Depending on which performance pools you pick, again assuming the same "average" prevalence rate, Kenyan doping positives should outnumber the rest of the world by up to a factor of 10.
In order for me to conclude what you have conditioned yourself to believe, you need to provide more relevant data.
What a load of meaningless waffle. Of course you deflect from the essential point, which is that Kenya has become the worst doper in global athletics. Doping must therefore be a factor in their athletes' performances - and long been so. Unless you are a doping denier.
I wasn't banned. Don't be so gullible or dishonest. I don't need protection as I always post according to the "don't be a dick" guidelines.
I did step back and watched in amusement as you and Armstronglivs failed to name a country more successful than Kenyan, even before East African World domination in Cross Country, and long before EPO.
You have used "success" in the same highly selective sense as does the Kenyan propagandist slowwer. You are describing placegetters, not winners. In the twenty years till 1980 Kenya produced only 3 Olympic champions - all at altitude and one in the 'B' event of the steeple - and only one world record holder in the distances from the 800m to the marathon (in which they simply didn't feature). Pretty slim pickings for the nation being touted here as the best running nation on the planet in that era. The winners and world record holders almost always came from other countries. (As for crosscountry in the 80's - no one gives a sh*t. It might as well be darts or curling.)
I wasn't banned. Don't be so gullible or dishonest. I don't need protection as I always post according to the "don't be a dick" guidelines.
I did step back and watched in amusement as you and Armstronglivs failed to name a country more successful than Kenyan, even before East African World domination in Cross Country, and long before EPO.
You have used "success" in the same highly selective sense as does the Kenyan propagandist slowwer. You are describing placegetters, not winners. In the twenty years till 1980 Kenya produced only 3 Olympic champions - all at altitude and one in the 'B' event of the steeple - and only one world record holder in the distances from the 800m to the marathon (in which they simply didn't feature). Pretty slim pickings for the nation being touted here as the best running nation on the planet in that era. The winners and world record holders almost always came from other countries. (As for crosscountry in the 80's - no one gives a sh*t. It might as well be darts or curling.)
Hey Armstrong, I'm really proud of you. You got something right, for the first time! After weeks of explanations and dozens of posts you got something right: Kenya has had just 3 Olympic champions in the period 1964 - 1979 (first Olympic appearance in 1956, first world class result in 1964, boycott in 1976). Well, only...
These are the number of Olympic distance running champions in this period (track, men) for all the other nations (mostly non-boycott nations): USA: 3 Finland: 2 Australia: 1 New Zealand: 2 Great Britain and any other nation: 0
So "only 3" is some description I wouldn't use when no other nation has a higher number - but, hey, you are not Armstrong for nothing.
steeple some "B" event? So you think the rest doesn't really care about the event? I don't think so, but let's look at the other events:
800m: Olympic Games 64: Bronze, 68: Silver, 72: Bronze - very high chance for a medal in 76 as well Commonwealth Games 66: Silver, 70: Gold, 74: Gold+Silver, 78: Gold+Bronze all-time list 1 athlete reached no. 3 all-time, 1 athlete no. 2 all-time hard to argue against that Kenya was the most successful nation in the event in the period 1964 - 1979
1500m: Olympic Games 68: Gold, 72: Silver Commonwealth Games 66: Gold, 70: Gold, 74: Bronze 2 athletes reached no. 2 all-time in the Mile, 1 no. 2 all-time in the 1500m, 1 no. 4 all-time in the 1500m Kenya definitely was one of the top 3 nations in the event
3000m: all-time list: 2 athletes have set a world record
5000m: Olympic Games 68: Silver+Bronze Commonwealth Games 66: Gold, 70: Bronze, 74: Gold, 78: Gold+Silver all-time list: 2 athletes have set a world record, 1 athlete has reached no. 2 all-time Kenya definitely was one of the top 3 nations in the event
10000m: Olympic Games 68: Gold Commonwealth Games 1966: Gold, 1974: Bronze, 1978: Silver all-time list 2 athletes have set a world record, 1 athlete has reached no. 3 all-time Kenya definitely was one of the top 4 nations in the event
Yes, you are right: Kenya almost didn't participate in the Marathon at all before 1980.
Altitude might have some positive effect for Kenya in 68, but Temu has beaten Clarke also at the 66 Commonwealth Games (Kingston), and Keino has beaten Clarke also at the 64 Olympics (Tokyo) as well as the 66 and 70 Commonwealth Games (Edinburgh). Now please check the altitude of Tokyo, Kingston and Edinburgh (small hint: all have an seaport, which means the chances they are in the high mountains are not that HIGH...).
Nobody has said Kenya was "the best running nation on the planet in that era". But Kenya was the most successful nation in distance running in the period 1964 - 1979 (men, track). If you include the Marathon (which practically was not contested by Kenya at all) I think the most successful nation was the USA.
Most of this was told you before, but you have not understood and you will not understand. But that's no problem, since in the next 50 pages of this thread you might even find the names of some Olympic champions you never have heard of and maybe you will even find the name of a runner who most of the running world see as one of THE legends of this sport. So I guess you will improve really fast (relatively speaking...).
But then you don't see any discrepancy in your thinking:
1) almost anybody at the top is doping
2) most athletes from other countries than Kenya try to reach the top legitimately
I'm waiting for more completely wrong numbers and nonsensical reasoning of yours, Armstrong. It will come, soon!
These are the number of Olympic distance running champions in this period (track, men) for all the other nations (mostly non-boycott nations): USA: 3 Finland: 2 Australia: 1 New Zealand: 2 Great Britain and any other nation: 0
I watched in amusement as ... Armstronglivs failed to name a country ...
You have used "success" in the same highly selective sense as does the Kenyan propagandist slowwer. You are describing placegetters, not winners. In the twenty years till 1980 Kenya produced only 3 Olympic champions - all at altitude and one in the 'B' event of the steeple - and only one world record holder in the distances from the 800m to the marathon (in which they simply didn't feature). Pretty slim pickings for the nation being touted here as the best running nation on the planet in that era. The winners and world record holders almost always came from other countries. (As for crosscountry in the 80's - no one gives a sh*t. It might as well be darts or curling.)
All these words, and you still failed to name another country. The amusement never ends.
Data doesn't lie, but this isn't prevalence data, nor performance data.
...
My bigger interest is performance. Can you connect positive tests to performance? For example, how have the remaining 60% of positive drug tested athletes performed compared to Kenyan athletes? Surely we should be able to see the emporer's clothes from a pool of 60%.
...
In order for me to conclude what you have conditioned yourself to believe, you need to provide more relevant data.
What a load of meaningless waffle. Of course you deflect from the essential point, which is that Kenya has become the worst doper in global athletics. Doping must therefore be a factor in their athletes' performances - and long been so. Unless you are a doping denier.
When you can't debate on the merits, you resort to "meaningless waffle" -- predictable.
If you can't connect performance with the remaining 60% of the positive tests, then I can only assume it must not exist for the 40% either.
Rekrunner and slowwer must have fantastic 5K pbs, given their tiny brains use little energy....according to their own scientific theories that they probably cribbed from some discredited 19th century Victorian quack.
The psychopathy: why do you rate your value of your post or content on votes or downvotes? Seems childish.
Lol, I don't care in the slightest slowwer. I'm pointing out the childishness of you constantly posting under different handles and downvoting anybody who calls you out on your explicit scientific racism that is used to mask the sickening exploitation of young Kenyan runners by Western managers, coaches, and promoters.
This wasn't posted by me.
For sure you don't care the slightest about up- and downvotes.
That's why you're downvoting comments almost reflexively just because of the person who did the post - always when you appear in some thread.
Yeah, you "don't care in the slightest"...
In this thread you have reached a new level, Coevett. Posting complete bullsh!t and then several times claiming someone else (me) did the post. This definitely has some criminal part.
You have used "success" in the same highly selective sense as does the Kenyan propagandist slowwer. You are describing placegetters, not winners. In the twenty years till 1980 Kenya produced only 3 Olympic champions - all at altitude and one in the 'B' event of the steeple - and only one world record holder in the distances from the 800m to the marathon (in which they simply didn't feature). Pretty slim pickings for the nation being touted here as the best running nation on the planet in that era. The winners and world record holders almost always came from other countries. (As for crosscountry in the 80's - no one gives a sh*t. It might as well be darts or curling.)
Hey Armstrong, I'm really proud of you. You got something right, for the first time! After weeks of explanations and dozens of posts you got something right: Kenya has had just 3 Olympic champions in the period 1964 - 1979 (first Olympic appearance in 1956, first world class result in 1964, boycott in 1976). Well, only...
These are the number of Olympic distance running champions in this period (track, men) for all the other nations (mostly non-boycott nations): USA: 3 Finland: 2 Australia: 1 New Zealand: 2 Great Britain and any other nation: 0
So "only 3" is some description I wouldn't use when no other nation has a higher number - but, hey, you are not Armstrong for nothing.
steeple some "B" event? So you think the rest doesn't really care about the event? I don't think so, but let's look at the other events:
800m: Olympic Games 64: Bronze, 68: Silver, 72: Bronze - very high chance for a medal in 76 as well Commonwealth Games 66: Silver, 70: Gold, 74: Gold+Silver, 78: Gold+Bronze all-time list 1 athlete reached no. 3 all-time, 1 athlete no. 2 all-time hard to argue against that Kenya was the most successful nation in the event in the period 1964 - 1979
1500m: Olympic Games 68: Gold, 72: Silver Commonwealth Games 66: Gold, 70: Gold, 74: Bronze 2 athletes reached no. 2 all-time in the Mile, 1 no. 2 all-time in the 1500m, 1 no. 4 all-time in the 1500m Kenya definitely was one of the top 3 nations in the event
3000m: all-time list: 2 athletes have set a world record
5000m: Olympic Games 68: Silver+Bronze Commonwealth Games 66: Gold, 70: Bronze, 74: Gold, 78: Gold+Silver all-time list: 2 athletes have set a world record, 1 athlete has reached no. 2 all-time Kenya definitely was one of the top 3 nations in the event
10000m: Olympic Games 68: Gold Commonwealth Games 1966: Gold, 1974: Bronze, 1978: Silver all-time list 2 athletes have set a world record, 1 athlete has reached no. 3 all-time Kenya definitely was one of the top 4 nations in the event
Yes, you are right: Kenya almost didn't participate in the Marathon at all before 1980.
Altitude might have some positive effect for Kenya in 68, but Temu has beaten Clarke also at the 66 Commonwealth Games (Kingston), and Keino has beaten Clarke also at the 64 Olympics (Tokyo) as well as the 66 and 70 Commonwealth Games (Edinburgh). Now please check the altitude of Tokyo, Kingston and Edinburgh (small hint: all have an seaport, which means the chances they are in the high mountains are not that HIGH...).
Nobody has said Kenya was "the best running nation on the planet in that era". But Kenya was the most successful nation in distance running in the period 1964 - 1979 (men, track). If you include the Marathon (which practically was not contested by Kenya at all) I think the most successful nation was the USA.
Most of this was told you before, but you have not understood and you will not understand. But that's no problem, since in the next 50 pages of this thread you might even find the names of some Olympic champions you never have heard of and maybe you will even find the name of a runner who most of the running world see as one of THE legends of this sport. So I guess you will improve really fast (relatively speaking...).
But then you don't see any discrepancy in your thinking:
1) almost anybody at the top is doping
2) most athletes from other countries than Kenya try to reach the top legitimately
I'm waiting for more completely wrong numbers and nonsensical reasoning of yours, Armstrong. It will come, soon!
What a load of wind. You are reduced to arguing for minor placings at the Olympics and wins at the Commonwealth Games, which were not world championships.
No one remembers the gold at altitude in the steeple at Mexico in '68 because the steeple was not then a blue riband event. Like all the other distance events in Mexico the altitude in the steeple favoured Kenyans.
In the twenty years till 1980 the only world records by Kenyans in the 800 to the marathon came from Keino in the 3k and 5k. (His 5k record was demolished by Clarke only a few months later).
World records till 1980 by Kenyans:
800m - zero.
880y - zero.
1500 - zero.
Mile - zero.
2k - zero.
3k - Keino.
3k steeple - zero
2 mile - zero.
3 mile - zero.
5k - Keino.
6 mile - zero.
10k - zero.
Marathon - zero.
Two records in two decades. So it appears there were a lot of runners faster than Kenyans in that era, and as Kenyans only had three Olympic champions in twenty years they were very rarely the winners at the global championships. Nor would they have beaten any of the winners at Montreal or Moscow. But by all means, console yourself with their minor placings, where they occurred.
This is what Kenyan running is about - and likely has always been so.
From Running Magazine:
Over the course of one year, 40 per cent of all the [positive drug tests] recorded in global athletics are in Kenya,” World Athletics (WA) president Seb Coe said following a 2022 WA council meeting. Coe added that WA has been eyeing the ever-growing doping issues in Kenya for some time, and he and his team seriously considered issuing an outright ban of all Kenyan athletes until the problem was sorted.
You have used "success" in the same highly selective sense as does the Kenyan propagandist slowwer. You are describing placegetters, not winners. In the twenty years till 1980 Kenya produced only 3 Olympic champions - all at altitude and one in the 'B' event of the steeple - and only one world record holder in the distances from the 800m to the marathon (in which they simply didn't feature). Pretty slim pickings for the nation being touted here as the best running nation on the planet in that era. The winners and world record holders almost always came from other countries. (As for crosscountry in the 80's - no one gives a sh*t. It might as well be darts or curling.)
All these words, and you still failed to name another country. The amusement never ends.
I don't have to "name another country" to point out the paucity of Olympic champions and world record holders from Kenya in the couple of decades before 1980.
What a load of meaningless waffle. Of course you deflect from the essential point, which is that Kenya has become the worst doper in global athletics. Doping must therefore be a factor in their athletes' performances - and long been so. Unless you are a doping denier.
When you can't debate on the merits, you resort to "meaningless waffle" -- predictable.
If you can't connect performance with the remaining 60% of the positive tests, then I can only assume it must not exist for the 40% either.
So you make assumptions based on what I choose not to argue. If I therefore choose not to describe the elephant in the room, by your reasoning it can't be there. Of course you would think like that.
I don't bother to argue whether doping has aided performances in the 60% who are not Kenyans because it is a given that wherever doping occurs it has had the effect of enhancing performance. Except to a doping denier like yourself.
However if you maintain the view - as you do - that there is no proof doping aids performance then you won't be bothered by the stream of doping busts in Kenya, as by your reasoning their chronic doping had no effect on their performances. To you they haven't really cheated.
But no one in international athletics thinks as you do; neither the athletes nor the antidoping officials. Your madness is yours alone.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
I don't have to "name another country" to point out the paucity of Olympic champions and world record holders from Kenya in the couple of decades before 1980.
Once you intellectually mature past the age of 5 or 6, you should have discovered that you have to do more than just say "nuh uh" to be persuasive in any discussion with intellectuals.
If you want to dispute that Kenya was not the best country, you most certainly do have to "name another country".
It is an obvious question -- if Kenya was not the best, which country was better during 1964-1979?
(As for crosscountry in the 80's - no one gives a sh*t. It might as well be darts or curling.)
You come on here posting, arguing, insulting, like some kind of expert but your ignorance is often exposed.
No one gives a sh*t about cross country in the 80s? That must be why the medal winners included Rod Dickson, Nick Rose, Tim Hutchings, Carlos Lopes, Fernando Mamede, Craig Virgin, Alberto Salazar and Steve Jones.
When you can't debate on the merits, you resort to "meaningless waffle" -- predictable.
If you can't connect performance with the remaining 60% of the positive tests, then I can only assume it must not exist for the 40% either.
So you make assumptions based on what I choose not to argue. If I therefore choose not to describe the elephant in the room, by your reasoning it can't be there. Of course you would think like that.
I don't bother to argue whether doping has aided performances in the 60% who are not Kenyans because it is a given that wherever doping occurs it has had the effect of enhancing performance. Except to a doping denier like yourself.
However if you maintain the view - as you do - that there is no proof doping aids performance then you won't be bothered by the stream of doping busts in Kenya, as by your reasoning their chronic doping had no effect on their performances. To you they haven't really cheated.
But no one in international athletics thinks as you do; neither the athletes nor the antidoping officials. Your madness is yours alone.
Don't pretend you had a choice. No one before you has made the connection despite several decades of data and observations, with the exception of women in track and field events requiring muscular strength, as demonstrated by East Germany, Russia, and China.
If the remaining 60% of dopers are not achieving in "Kenyan-esque" performances, why should I assume that the 40% was signficant for Kenyans. Note also that Coe can only speak for World Athletics, and does not speak for all WADA signatories.
It's amusing you say performance enhancing effect is "given" and then talk about "proof" of such effects (while choosing to never provide any "proofs" when asked). In the realm of logic, you start with a set of "givens" (unproven premises) which, when combined with a set of rules, permit a set of "proofs".
You only confirm my repeated assertions that you can only conclude such a performance connection when you assume it in the first place. Such an effect cannot be both "given" and "proven". We can equally, arbitrarily say "not given", and then such an effect remains "unproven".
I am bothered by the doping busts for two reasons, because it is both unnecessary, as you have rightly observed, and it brings out ignorant (as in lacking knowledge) posters who make illogical inferences by overinterpreting what little data is publicly available, both of which unnecessarily hurt the sport.
You pretend to be in the same camp of all international athletes -- who never say what you say -- and appeal to anti-doping officials -- who have no special or specific knowledge of elite performance.
My "madness" is largely a re-iteration of statements broadly expressed in the many peer-reviewed journals -- some of which are meta-studies saying that such scientific "proof" is sorely wanting, and some of studies with such alleged "proofs" explicitly including limitations and recommending against projecting any conclusions onto elite athletes and their performances.
So again -- if you are unable to show the performance connection in the remaining 60%, I cannot accept that there is a connection of the 40% referred to by Coe, and I do not assume that it is "given".
Yesterday I was looking at this video and I remembered the time when Renato Canova said that El G. had some physical resemblance with Kenyans. There hate him in this forum because a big part of his claims are truth.
I remember also the time where he said he was supporting Transfer of Allegiance in Athletics because it resolve a lot of social issues for runners.
Better quality video than other 800m finals video. Dave Wottle gives us one of the most brilliant Olympic performances ever, or at least the most under rated...
(As for crosscountry in the 80's - no one gives a sh*t. It might as well be darts or curling.)
You come on here posting, arguing, insulting, like some kind of expert but your ignorance is often exposed.
No one gives a sh*t about cross country in the 80s? That must be why the medal winners included Rod Dickson, Nick Rose, Tim Hutchings, Carlos Lopes, Fernando Mamede, Craig Virgin, Alberto Salazar and Steve Jones.
+1
World Cross Country was a big deal in Europe and the USA in the 1980s. In 1981 the USA had quite a strong team (with their top-5 placing in the top-20), and still they took second to Ethiopia, with Kenya in third, ahead of the rest of the world. The Ethiopian Mohammed Kedir was rubbing elbows at the finish with the legends Craig Virgin and Fernando Mamede, and Ethopian Girma Berhanu on the heels of legend Rob De Castella, about 10 seconds ahead of legend Rod Dixon.
Since then, the only time East Africans didn't win was during wars affecting their country.
This was the beginning of East African world domination that has continued now for four decades. It boggles my mind that anyone could believe the poor countries in East Africa could dope on such a scale to produce the depth of talented performances in the 1980s, while the rest of the civilized world has not yet figured out how to harness the raw power, without detection, of the same amazing endurance enhancing drugs.
This post was edited 9 minutes after it was posted.
Reason provided:
Fixed minor inconsistency of "decades".