There is no “genetic superiority” when it comes to distance running. Literally everyone sub 2:09 is just doping.

I'm kind of sick of it -- please stop saying it. No one, except posters like you, reduces the benefit to just genetics. It is a false dichotomy to have to chose between doping and genetics. How do you explain East Africans based in areas where there is testing, like America, Canada, Japan, Britain and Denmark? How do you explain the slow performances of non Africans when there was no testing?

Will the line be drawn? wrote:

Is anyone else sick of hearing how these East Africans are just genetically superior? They are in area where getting drugs is way easier than other parts of the world and in areas where drug testing isn’t even a thing. It’s awfully funny people think these guys are just better athletes. The only thing they are doing that Americans aren’t is getting away with doping. These guys debuting at times faster than the world record times ten years ago makes zero sense, humans didn’t all of a sudden evolve to be faster in the last 10-20 years. The entire area needs banned from participating in the Olympics until they get good testing.

Let me guess ....

Whoever is smart is cheating

Whoever is rich is dirty

Whoever got in ... Knows someone

What's YOUR excuse?

no,not all sub 2.09 runners are doping.a lot,perhaps most,yes,but not all.

There was a clean runner once, named Ryan Hall and because he didn't produce the results that you wanted, got fed up and turned to weight lifting.

rekrunner wrote:

I'm kind of sick of it -- please stop saying it.

No one, except posters like you, reduces the benefit to just genetics.

It is a false dichotomy to have to chose between doping and genetics.

How do you explain East Africans based in areas where there is testing, like America, Canada, Japan, Britain and Denmark?

How do you explain the slow performances of non Africans when there was no testing?

Personally I've spent a lot of time here explaining these things.

For example, the coach of Peter Bol and Joseph Deng, who posts here a lot, stated that he found those two young athletes whilst 'scouting for the next Rudisha'. Notice that he didn't state 'scouting for the next Snell', or 'scouting for the next Herb Elliott', both of whom, however fast and talented Bol and Deng are, were in a different stratosphere when it came to middle-distance talent.

I don't know the precise number of East African decent or born immigrants in GB now, but I would guess it is at least 1 or 2 million, probably the Somali population alone is at least 2 million. As of now, despite probably every one of them being pidgeonholed by their PE teachers as distance runners, as little Mo Farah was, that population has thus far produced one outstanding distance runner - Mo 'doorbell' 'Aden just held the watch' Farah.

When you ask us to explain the success of East Africans representing Denmark, are you seriously referring to Kipketer?

Most or all of these athletes go back to their home (or 'ancestral home') regularly, where there is still little or no testing.

Does your master race theory also explain why Algerians and Moroccan immigrants suddenly dominated Spanish, French, Belgian running as soon as EPO became available in the early 90s?

How do you explain how the richest and most successful VO2 athlete Kenya has ever produced (by a wide margin) is a pasty faced white guy whose parents are from Scotland?

Smaller bones lol? wrote:

spyro the dragon wrote:

I agree that most East Africans are doping, but I also believe they have the physical advantage of simply having smaller bodies, which is incredibly advantageous in the marathon. Also, all sub 2:09s are dirty? I don't think so. There is no evidence to suggest that Japanese marathoners are dirty.

I don’t think there is any evidence that East Africans way smaller bones ....????

They said ‘bodies’ not ‘bones’.

Coevett wrote:

Does your master race theory also explain why Algerians and Moroccan immigrants suddenly dominated Spanish, French, Belgian running as soon as EPO became available in the early 90s?

+1

Exactly...and also the Morocco immigrants to Bahrain (Bahrain?...when did Bahrain become good in distance running. Lol).

So, let's see how rekrunner can answer this.

rekrunner wrote:

I'm kind of sick of it -- please stop saying it.

No one, except posters like you, reduces the benefit to just genetics.

It is a false dichotomy to have to chose between doping and genetics.

How do you explain East Africans based in areas where there is testing, like America, Canada, Japan, Britain and Denmark?

Mourhit, running for the country of Belgium, spent the winter months at Morocco's national center. There he probably consulted with Moroccan doping doctors/coaches on doping & training programs to use during the competition season in Europe.

I imagine Belgium was quite proud of him until his unexpected doping positive in 02. ?

Well Said wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Does your master race theory also explain why Algerians and Moroccan immigrants suddenly dominated Spanish, French, Belgian running as soon as EPO became available in the early 90s?

+1

Exactly...and also the Morocco immigrants to Bahrain (Bahrain?...when did Bahrain become good in distance running. Lol).

So, let's see how rekrunner can answer this.

The Moroccans are/were dirty, except El Guerrouj of course, he was much too fast to be doping. It was all about the hard work that he put in. Humble, poor and religiously devout people like him never even consider untraceable drugs to pay the bills.

Yes, you often present this false dichotomy of genetics vs. doping, arguing that genetics is bunk, so therefore high performance is explained by the only other possibility -- doping. It would be unusual to say "next Snell" or "next Elliot", heroes of yester-century, instead of "next Rudisha", hero of today, and the best of all time. Lastest British population statistics puts GB at a population of around 60+ million, with 87% (~52 million) white and 3% (~2 million) black -- some small fraction of which are East African. Not sure why global population matters -- even in Kenya and Ethiopia, success is concentrated among certain limited regions and tribes, and not distributed equally. Why not Kipketer? Just how many East African ex-pats regularly go back to Africa? Can you confirm your speculative theory with real data? What about those athletes not going back to Africa? For example, do/did all these athletes go back regularly?: Wilson Kipketer, Paul Chelimo, Hilary Bor, Bernard Lagat, Sammy Wanjiru, Buzenesh Deba, King Ches, Futsum Zeineselassie, Sam Chelenga, Lopez Lomong, Hassan Mead, Mo Ahmed, ... ? Can you explain why Bengt Saltin, in a 1990 study, estimated that 500 Kenyan schoolboys could beat Sweden's best national runner? Were all of these schoolboys already on EPO as early as 1990? Who was funding that? Wouldn't they need refrigerators and electricity? Can you explain how Kenya and Ethiopia already dominated World Cross Country, a decade earlier, in the 1980s? Were they already using blood transfusions and steroids, like some of the Europeans? Why would East Africans dominate, but not the Europeans with better access to medical technology? I have often addressed "success as soon as EPO" as a figment of your imagination, attempting to link events (that sometimes did not happen) to milestones that might have occurred years or decades earlier. Outside of a half-dozen runners around the year 2000 +/- 4 years, North Africans did not "dominate" over the non-African athletes. Any marginal difference I would attribute to Europeans/Americans not reaching their potential. Post El G, North Africans are still doping in large numbers, but not signficantly outperforming non-African athletes, nor even athletes from the 1980s. I don't have a master race theory but a high altitude theory. My theory predicts, if you take European descended families and move them to Iten, and bring up the kids just like the locals, after 1 or 2 generations, you will see many non-African descended athletes emerging. Ryan Hall was a product of being raised at altitude, combined with a light weight. The Robertson twins improved greatly, as did Moen, with an extended training at high altitude. Even the Johnson twins significantly improved after college, by training at altitude. If you think of living at high altitude as comparable to a lifetime of continuous micro-dosing of EPO, it should not be hard to imagine East African dominance achieved legally, without rejecting your strong beliefs in the power of EPO.

11/10

Lol ! How do you then explain the results from Paul Chelimo and Yomif Kejelcha ??? They got even better when living and training in the USA !!

I hope you liked my answer. When I collected results for my performance thread, the number of unique athletes outperforming my 1990 benchmark, up to Jan. 2018, over all 6 events was: East Africa: 341 North Africa: 30 5-Continents: 32 In terms of quantity, it's hard to say that North Africa "dominated" over non-Africans. In terms of quality, it is easy to come up with a half dozen names and performances, where performers were dominant, but not more. North Africa is most famous for doping, with Morocco still topping the ABP charts. Between 1996-2004, they also produced a few exceptional athletes.

Well Said wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Does your master race theory also explain why Algerians and Moroccan immigrants suddenly dominated Spanish, French, Belgian running as soon as EPO became available in the early 90s?

+1

Exactly...and also the Morocco immigrants to Bahrain (Bahrain?...when did Bahrain become good in distance running. Lol).

So, let's see how rekrunner can answer this.

Here is my list of 30 "top" North Africans post-1990, and the countries they represented:

Hicham El Guerrouj MAR

Noureddine Morceli ALG

Taoufik Makhloufi ALG

Abdelati Iguider MAR

Mehdi Baala FRA

Rashid Ramzi BRN

Ali Saïdi-Sief ALG

Amine Laâlou MAR

Mohammed Mourhit BEL

Salah Hissou MAR

Brahim Lahlafi MAR

Ismaïl Sghyr MAR

El Hassan Lahssini MAR

Mustapha Essaïd FRA

Khalid Boulami MAR

Abderrahim Goumri MAR

Brahim Boulami MAR

Mahiédine Mekhissi-Benabbad FRA

Bouabdellah Tahri FRA

Ali Ezzine MAR

Soufiane El Bakkali MAR

Hicham Bellani MAR

Khalid Skah MAR

Brahim Jabbour MAR

Mohammed Amyn MAR

Jaouad Gharib MAR

Khalid Khannouchi USA

Abdelkader El Mouaziz MAR

Driss El Himer FRA

Rachid Kisri MAR

Here is my list of 32 "top" 5-continent athletes post-1990, and the countries they represented:

Fermin Cacho ESP

Nick Willis NZL

Isaac Viciosa ESP

Mark Carroll IRL

Dieter Baumann GER

Bob Kennedy USA

Ryan Hill USA

Manuel Pancorbo ESP

Craig Mottram AUS

Enrique Molina ESP

Alistair Cragg IRL

Evan Jager USA

Simon Vroemen NED

Chris Solinsky USA

Dathan Ritzenhein USA

Matt Tegenkamp USA

Moukhled Al-Outaibi KSA

Galen Rupp USA

Cameron Levins CAN

António Pinto POR

Fabián Roncero ESP

Ronaldo da Costa BRA

Toshinari Takaoka JPN

Ryan Hall USA

Gert Thys RSA

Marilson dos Santos BRA

Benoit Zwierzchiewski FRA

Atsushi Fujita JPN

Julio Rey ESP

Hendrick Ramaala RSA

Takayuki Inubushi JPN

Ian Syster RSA

Note these are men only.

Borderline wrote:

Just pointing this out. EPO hit the scene and the world record went from 2:09 to 2:01 in a matter of 20 years. Yet we are supposed to think these athletes are just getting better by magic.

That isn’t even remotely true about the WR progression. Are you familiar with google?

Blood doping has been around for 50 years. Does it not work? If not why did Lance Armstrong use it?

letstalkbollocks.com wrote:

Blood doping has been around for 50 years. Does it not work? If not why did Lance Armstrong use it?

No, no, no, blood doping makes you slower. Lance Armstrong only doped because he believed in the propaganda that doping works.