Have any non African born men broken 13:00 for the 5000 since the introduction of the biological passport?

Star wrote:

That's a very specific condition.

And the fact that there was a race 3 people under 12:50 means that the biological passport has not precluded people from running very fast.

There are two main causes to explain the subject line.

1- There have been very few races at all where the field has even attempted to chase a rabbit and run fast. Most races have runners looking for place, not time.

2- African born men simply dominate that event in general. That's nothing new. Even before the biological passport there has never been a non-African that has run under 12:55. So your condition is moot.

Chris Solinsky is the fastest non-African 5000m runner ever if I am looking at the list right.

Are you implying some shadyness on his part?

Dirty Dieter was faster

Also the Saudi guy, Mukhlid Mahil Al-Otaibi ran sub 13.

People run under 12:50 are unlikely to be fully monitored by the ABP. Far slacker than Cycling and Tennis who both notorious histories. The ABP is also very generous parameters, a male can dope his OFF-SCORE up to 115 and say he lives at altitude and no one will second guess it.

Aragon wrote:

It is equally unexplained why these Hct 60-65 % guys of the 1990s were barely faster than the marathon runners of the 1980s and male marathoners have become faster almost linearly independent of any anti-doping innovations.

Male marathon times have not become faster 'independent of anti-doping innovations' if the 'talent' (including Kipchoge) is moving from the 5K to the roads to escape anti-doping innovations.

The Morrocans had some hefty guys smashing sub-13 (e.g., Khalid Boulami, Hissou, Lahlafi). And there's Ali Saïdi-Sief who is gigantic by elite distance running standards. This is a freaking 12:50 guy who dwarfed his competitors. Here in the 2001 WC he's duking it out for the medals against some of those scrawny, diminutive Kenyans (I bet you remember this race Subway?):

So, I don't know what Wigins is talking about with the weight issue - sometimes he comes up the craziest ideas.

Well he obviously didn’t weigh much but I was contesting the idea he didn’t eat much. Whenever a western reporter visited him he had the smorgasbord out.

Big Fast North Africans wrote:

The Morrocans had some hefty guys smashing sub-13 (e.g., Khalid Boulami, Hissou, Lahlafi). And there's Ali Saïdi-Sief who is gigantic by elite distance running standards. This is a freaking 12:50 guy who dwarfed his competitors. Here in the 2001 WC he's duking it out for the medals against some of those scrawny, diminutive Kenyans (I bet you remember this race Subway?):

So, I don't know what Wigins is talking about with the weight issue - sometimes he comes up the craziest ideas.

East African stick figures dominate so it must be the case that East African stick figures have the perfect phenotype for racing. Like Kiprop. Even though we now know that East Africans dominate because of rampant EPO abuse going on there for decades. When a little country like Morocco joined the EPO party, they held their own with the East Africans, and didn't look like stick figures in the process. When certain individuals from the West, such as Dirty Dieter and possibly Paula, joined the EPO party, they held their own with the East Africans, and didn't look like stick figures in the process. Paula weighed more than some of the top male East Africans.

Big Fast North Africans wrote:

Subway Surfers wrote:

El Guerrouj ate heaps, massive meals as did most Moroccans. They had many under 13 minutes.

The Morrocans had some hefty guys smashing sub-13 (e.g., Khalid Boulami, Hissou, Lahlafi). And there's Ali Saïdi-Sief who is gigantic by elite distance running standards. This is a freaking 12:50 guy who dwarfed his competitors. Here in the 2001 WC he's duking it out for the medals against some of those scrawny, diminutive Kenyans (I bet you remember this race Subway?):

https://youtu.be/8CXugT36vMM

So, I don't know what Wigins is talking about with the weight issue - sometimes he comes up the craziest ideas.

Ssssh! Don't tell anyone but I was always gutted when Saïdi-Sief lost in that 2000-2001 period. His bulk was probably all that Nandrolone.

It would be great if we could find some of his 7:25 12:50 races or the 3:30 he ran in pouring rain in Gateshead, it blew Ovett's mind.

Coevett wrote:

Male marathon times have not become faster 'independent of anti-doping innovations' if the 'talent' (including Kipchoge) is moving from the 5K to the roads to escape anti-doping innovations.

Because the PED- reductionist argument tends to be that almost all seasonal variations in top speeds can be explained by PED use, am I reading correctly that you think that marathon runners can have their natural Hct's equal or higher than during the "slow" 1990s or that they didn't use EPO at all in the 1990s?

I also presume EPO more readily available for 5000m during the last season vs. 10000m when it's SB was only some six seconds slower than WR whereas 10000m best was roughly a minute slower than the WR and reminiscent of the times of the early 1980s.

The explanation to all the above is the "talent/ money/ interest/ motivation was in place X instead of Y in year/time period Z", the very unbiased and sound sentence that explains away nicely some irregularities and fluctuations in the data that don't quite fit the EPO - reductionist narrative.

Subway Surfers wrote:

It would be great if we could find some of his 7:25 12:50 races or the 3:30 he ran in pouring rain in Gateshead, it blew Ovett's mind.

3:30 in pouring rain...are you kidding me? Wow...that's simply amazing. Pouring rain on a track can be disastrous - excess weight from being drenched, poor footing, drag on leg turnover, poor visibility, etc. Someone please find that race video and post it!

Coevett wrote:

In the ten years before the ABP was introduced, just one non-African born runner went under 13 minutes (Mottram).

In the ten years (almost) since the ABP was introduced three non-African born runners have gone under 13 minutes.

In the ten years before the ABP was introduced, 50 African born runners went under 13 minutes.

In the ten years since the ABP was introduced, 47 African born runners went under 13 minutes.

In the ten years before the ABP was introduced, 26 Kenyan runners went under 13 minutes.

In the ten years since the ABP was introduced, 20 Kenyan runners went under 13 minutes.

Wow, these are some impressive numbers. From 50 down to 47? Hard to imagine there could be another explanation for this extreme irregularity than DoPiNg dOpInG DOPING ...

If Venti couldn't find it I don't know who could. Ovett did call it "pouring rain" probably a storm that hadpassed, the track did look pretty wet, here he looks wet-ish. Beat all the top Kenyans ex-Ngeny by like 50-60m, the next week he ran 7:25. We need to see that video.

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/ali-saidi-sief-of-algeria-celebrates-his-victory-in-the-news-photo/1041522

Subway Surfers wrote:

If Venti couldn't find it I don't know who could. Ovett did call it "pouring rain" probably a storm that hadpassed, the track did look pretty wet, here he looks wet-ish. Beat all the top Kenyans ex-Ngeny by like 50-60m, the next week he ran 7:25. We need to see that video.

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/ali-saidi-sief-of-algeria-celebrates-his-victory-in-the-news-photo/1041522

Good find...that's one heck of an upper body for a guy who runs 12:50 & 7:25!

Bad Wigins wrote:

Your sub-13 Americans may look skinny, but the skeleton inside their absent muscles is still way bigger on average than an east African skeleton. And that's essentially dead weight they're hauling around, they might as well have weight vests on.

That's totally wrong, and is a racist comment.

There is hardly any difference in the weight of bones in proportion to weight between different individuals.

Coevett wrote:

---- another racist attack toward black African Kenyans ----

Reported.

Subway Surfers wrote:

El Guerrouj ate heaps, massive meals as did most Moroccans. They had many under 13 minutes.

They sure did but the well went dry after the implementation of ABP in 09.

Morocco had nine (9) guys running sub-13 prior to the ABP. The fastest are Lahlafi (12:49.38) and Mourhit (12:49.71), both set in 2000 (Mourhit also served a ban for an EPO positive in 02).

The late Goumri ran 12:50.25 in 2005 and was the only runner out of these 9 that continued competing in the ABP-era though he transitioned to the marathon by that time period (He was also suspended for ABP hematological anomalies case in 2012).

Average time of 9 sub-13 Moroccans: ~12:53

Only one (1) Moroccan ran sub-13 in the ABP-era: Iguider in 2015 (12:59.25).

In fact, the five fastest times in the ABP-era are:

1. Iguider 12:59.25 (2015)

2. Lahbadi 13:04.06 (2012)

3. Fifa 13:05.61 (2015)

4. Maarofit 13:13.19 (2009)

5. Bougantar 13:13.68 (2019)

Average time: ~13:07

What happened to Moroccan 5000 speed after 2008? ?

Moo Goo wrote:

I think Bob Kennedy's run was clean though. I don't see him as being a doper.

I wonder why...

dunes runner wrote:

jeff tallon wrote:

- - - - another racist post toward black African runners - - - -

Reported.

Please check all the postings by these two racist posters.

dunes runner wrote:

Coevett wrote:

---- another racist attack toward black African Kenyans ----

Reported.

dunes runner, someone who thinks Kenyan media reporting on Kenyan rampant doping is racist. You are truly pathetic, good think cycling is mostly made up of white guys, or else you'd be on all the cycling forums crying racism.

racism is no where to be found wrote:

dunes runner, someone who thinks Kenyan media reporting on Kenyan rampant doping is racist. You are truly pathetic, good think cycling is mostly made up of white guys, or else you'd be on all the cycling forums crying racism.

There you go trolling again with more racist remarks.

And again you are wrong.

Kenyan media did NOT come to Letsrun and posts all kinds of racist comments here.

YOU did that, not them.

Why don't you post all the English articles about Radcliffe, Coe and all the other white man runner's who've been outed for doping, and then quickly explaining THEMSELVES why their test results are okay. There is absolutely NO oversight for corrupt British runners. Go ahead, let me see you post a bunch of articles about Radcliffe being on drugs, on this thread. The answer is that you're racist, because you're singling out Moroccans, and black African Kenyans and Ethiopians.

I am more than happy to talk about British doping, which I agree is protected by Coe, who himself was more than likely dirty.

Doping is doping, no matter the color of the person doping. I don't care what color the doper is, I want the sport to be clean.