Nijel Amos 1:41.89!

Coevett wrote:

Macdaddy wrote:

So how old is he? What is it... 7 years later and he still breaks 1:42.

7 years later and he is still slower than at 18.

You once have been predicted that Amos is finishes. Now you are just pointing on something which makes it still possible to use the word "slow". For a performance which makes Amos just the 3rd person to break 1:42 more than once.

Have you already praised Anthony Wightman? He has just finishes 1st in this race (in the battle for the last three places). What a shame his name is not Whiteman.

Looking back at what I wrote previously, it admit it was a bit strong.

I have always had my suspicions about Amos since 2012. Not only did he improve by 7 secs in a season to 1:41, but I read various sources claiming he was not 18. Apparently his agent said he was 5 years older. Of course I don't have concrete evidence of this, so 'almost certainly' is a slight exaggeration.

In addition, it has been reported by Botswana newspapers that Amos avoided 2 drug tests in 2015, when he knew in advance (a la Kiprop) of the testers' arrival. Not only does this illustrate complicit behaviour to avoid a test, it also underlines that there is corruption in Botswana. I have linked these 2 articles previously in this thread.

Amos has been erratic to say the least in the intervening years, and has performed well below par at several championships. While the above information does not prove age cheating or drug taking, it does incline my mind at least, into thinking it is highly likely he is using PEDs.

With regards to Grice not beating a peak Ovett, it would appear that you were not following the sport in the late 70's/early 80's?

If you were, then you would know that Ovett was primarily a racer who did enough to win, which he did with ease; including an unbeaten run of 45 races over 1500m/1mile between 1977 and 1980. You would know that in most of his 'fast' runs or world records over those distances, he was invariably in front with 400 - 600m to go. (e.g 3:48.4 Mile WR

or 3:30.77 1500m WR -

),

not chasing and drafting off 2 or 3 runners of sub 3:30 ability in front. The pacing for many of these fast races was pretty dreadful compared to what they lay on in practically every Diamond League race these days.

You would also know how he waved and smiled in the home straight, clearly finding it ridiculously easy, as he missed the WR with 3:32.09.

You would know Ovett ran at least 13 times sub 3:33 or sub 3:51, compared to Grice only running under 3:33.5 once.

Ovett was an Olympic Champion over 800m, and was capable of much faster than his 1:44.09 pb. Grice doesn't have that speed.

Ovett was the 2 mile WR holder, Commonwealth 5000m champion and 4th in the UK National X Country Championships over 15,000m. Grice doesn't have this sort of endurance.

It is obvious to anyone who has followed the sport closely since 1980 that Ovett was capable, given economical pacing to the bell and some competition on the last lap, of at least 3:29 low on the synthetic tracks of the day. It is also obvious that the newest, state of the art Mondo tracks, especially those tuned to the top end of the spectrum for energy returns, is at least 1 sec faster over 1500m. The idea that tracks have not improved since 1980 is absurd.

When Ovett ran his 3:30 in Rieti, it was very windy, he was alone for the last 500m and he was certainly past his best. Yes, there were some fast times run in Rieti, but they were generally produced by individuals, who took advantag eof the low key atmosphere, great weather (generally!) and the fact the meeting came late in the season, just after a Champs when athletes had been at a season peak. Monaco, on the other hand, produces fast times for the majority of athletes competing there. If you take a look at the fastest races over 1500m in any 1 season over the last 10 years, you will see that most were set in Monaco. The 2 tracks do not compare in the sheer volume of fast times set in the middle distances.

Take a peak Ovett from 79-81 and put him on the Monaco track last week in the same race, he would certainly have beaten Grice, would certainly have run below 3:30 and would likely have beaten Cheruiyot.

When Grice runs several sub 3:32's and 3:50's for several seasons, not just the solitary one a year at Monaco, and when he has shown the ability to win races in a variety of ways and at a variety of paces, then I will consider again whether or not he could have beaten a peak Ovett from 40 years ago.

The Monaco track is not mondo, so you will need to re think that comment. There are plenty of faster track surfaces around the world.

It’s the mindset that athletes bring (and lack of wind) that makes the major difference. Athletes go there to run fast, they believe they are going to run fast and they do run fast. It’s as simple as that.

The idea that athletes have not improved since 1980 is absurd. Ovett would likely have beaten Cheruiyot? That's pure speculation, nothing but speculation and only speculation.

Monaco and Rieti are both tainted or none is. To just name the one you like is cherry pickung, nothing else.

JRinaldi wrote:

It’s the mindset that athletes bring (and lack of wind) that makes the major difference. Athletes go there to run fast, they believe they are going to run fast and they do run fast. It’s as simple as that.

That's probably the best explanation for the phenomenon.

Running a 1:49 isn't exactly suicidal for Coe. Heck, he could have gone 1:44 - probably would have to drop out, but he's not going to DIE from it! I'm not sure any pace he would have been fatal assuming it was decent conditions and he was in good health.

1:41szn wrote:

2019 Worlds & 2020 Olympics Favorite?

Discus.

Read on Twitter that he ran a sub 45 second 400m tonight, apparently the first sub 1:42 800 man to achieve that.

Coevett wrote:

Macdaddy wrote:

So how old is he? What is it... 7 years later and he still breaks 1:42.

7 years later and he is still slower than at 18.

This is not even remotely abnormal.

Nijel Amos' run at the 2012 Olympics was rabbited from start to finish by the greatest 800m runner in history. Multiple National Records were set in that race purely for this reason. No other race since then has had something even remotely similar.

Amos was also so badly worn after the race that he had to be taken off the track in a stretcher. You think it's reasonable to expect him to be able to replicate that?

Coevett wrote:

1:41szn wrote:

2019 Worlds & 2020 Olympics Favorite?

Discus.

Read on Twitter that he ran a sub 45 second 400m tonight, apparently the first sub 1:42 800 man to achieve that.

Link?

It was in Padua tonight, ran 44.99.

Can't find the Twitter link but this is Italian report is online, his result is buried towards the bottom.

http://www.fidal.it/content/Jacobs-verso-il-muro-dei-dieci-10-03-a-Padova/122814

Armstronglivs wrote:

The other rocket fuel wrote:

Steroids and amphetamines FTW

But no confirmed dopers using that in middle distance events in 1962. It certainly wasn't part of Lydiard's formula for success - and Snell was a Lydiard athlete. The world was a very different place then. I was there.

It seems unfair that you make accusations against Jakob and Max Burgin just for being fast, when you accept that the outliers 50 years ago could run the same times clean.

If Snell could run the equivalent of 1:42.2 clean then there's no reason that a similarly talented and mature 17 year old enjoying great coaching for several years, couldn't run a 1:45 clean today.

Similarly, if Herb Elliott could run likely the equivalent of a sub 3:30 at Monaco, when he was 22 (and arguably his WR at 20 was equivalent to a 3:30 or better today), it's not exactly outlandish to believe a superbly coached kid of similar talent could be a sub 3:30 guy at 18 1/2.

Coevett wrote:

1:41szn wrote:

2019 Worlds & 2020 Olympics Favorite?

Discus.

Read on Twitter that he ran a sub 45 second 400m tonight, apparently the first sub 1:42 800 man to achieve that.

Holy shi*t - this guy is on fire.

Armstronglivs wrote:

The other rocket fuel wrote:

Steroids and amphetamines FTW

But no confirmed dopers using that in middle distance events in 1962. It certainly wasn't part of Lydiard's formula for success - and Snell was a Lydiard athlete. The world was a very different place then. I was there.

No confirmed dopers?

Steroids weren't even BANNED at that time. Nobody can be caught roiding up in competition when they're not even TESTING for it. Based on this alone, all competitors in the 1960s are FAR more likely to have been "doping" compared to even the dirtiest of the East Africans today.

Nijjel wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Read on Twitter that he ran a sub 45 second 400m tonight, apparently the first sub 1:42 800 man to achieve that.

Holy shi*t - this guy is on fire.

He did run 44.1 in the Beijing 2015 4x400m relay so everyone knew he was capable of sub 45.

Korir will join Amos as a sub 1:42 man and he's run 44.2(?)

Rudisha could definitely have broken 45 just didn't bother

ex-runner wrote:

He did run 44.1 in the Beijing 2015 4x400m relay so everyone knew he was capable of sub 45.

Korir will join Amos as a sub 1:42 man and he's run 44.2(?)

Rudisha could definitely have broken 45 just didn't bother

Relay splits don't count, nor should Rudisha's altitude-aided times

just being honest wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

He did run 44.1 in the Beijing 2015 4x400m relay so everyone knew he was capable of sub 45.

Korir will join Amos as a sub 1:42 man and he's run 44.2(?)

Rudisha could definitely have broken 45 just didn't bother

Relay splits don't count, nor should Rudisha's altitude-aided times

Yes, but for an 800m man who rarely if ever runs international 400m in their peak form, relay splits and even altitude times give us an indication of their open 400m ability: simply add 0.7 to a relay split to give an open time and add on the necessary time using the altitude converter for those run at high altitude.

I seem to recall Rudisha ran a 45.5 in Nairobi (altitude) and then another around 45.2 at altitude (another season), which I think equates to 45.5 at sea level. Both were run early season, and I have no doubt he was capable of at least 45.0 (and more likely somewhere between 44.5 - 45.0) when he won Olympic gold in 2012.

Seyta wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

But no confirmed dopers using that in middle distance events in 1962. It certainly wasn't part of Lydiard's formula for success - and Snell was a Lydiard athlete. The world was a very different place then. I was there.

No confirmed dopers?

Steroids weren't even BANNED at that time. Nobody can be caught roiding up in competition when they're not even TESTING for it. Based on this alone, all competitors in the 1960s are FAR more likely to have been "doping" compared to even the dirtiest of the East Africans today.

There wasn't testing then because doping had yet to become an issue in sport. The culture, as such, of doping had yet to exist, because there wasn't the same knowledge of what drugs could do to enhance performance. The drugs available at that time were few and relatively untried in many sports. Steroids were finding their way into strength-related events, like weightlifting, wrestling and some of the field events, and this was led chiefly by the Russians and East Europeans. The first endurance event to show signs of doping was road cycling, with the adoption by some competitors of stimulants like Benzedrine and amphetamines. Steroids were not then seen as an aid to endurance sports, because, while adding strength they also added bulk, and this wasn't desirable then for middle and long distance runners. In the early 60's the sporting world was much more naive about these things, and in an amateur era there wasn't the same incentive or pressure to seek advantage through doping, which was then in its relative infancy. Performances at that time also tend to reflect that, as schoolboys can now outstrip the feats of many former Olympic champions and world record-holders of that period. Essentially, the whole approach to sport was very different 60 or so years ago; it was pretty amateur, and lacked the kind of training and technical knowledge that we have today, and doping was still a rarity and not the kind of practise that it has become, which is, sadly, an integral feature of elite and professional sport.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Is Real wrote:

Oldmanstrength.

Oldmanstrength = Onthejuice

Amos lives and trains in the U.S.

Not saying it is impossible, but its not easy to dope when you are getting half dozen random test a year.

TrackCoach wrote:

Amos lives and trains in the U.S.

Not saying it is impossible, but its not easy to dope when you are getting half dozen random test a year.

Do foreign athletes in the USA get tested as much as American athletes?

I thought that, for example, American athletes abroad get tested (by the foreign anti-drug testers) at the request of USADA. So wouldn't random testing for Amos have to be at the request of the Botswana athletics federation (apart from if he competes at an American meet)?

The four countries on the watch list (Kenya, Ethiopia, Morocco, Ukraine) have to have their top athletes tested four times a year, a new rule that was only introduced this year. So previously these countries didn't even have to test their athletes four times a year (if at all). I doubt if Botswana even asks USADA to test Amos.

Compare to Galen Rupp who was tested 19 times in the first 6 months of 2013.

I agree that the people here who claim Americans and Europeans are as likely to be doping as Africans are a joke, but not sure if foreign athletes have it so hard in the USA. In fact, maybe they have the best of both worlds. And I'm sure Amos spends a lot of time back home.