SDSU Aztec wrote:
https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/events/a773630/marathon-running-why-do-people-cheat/
“The awards ceremony was spoiled for the people in his over-60 age group,” Teschek says. “Their moment of glory on the podium was spoiled. You can never take it back once you miss that opportunity, and that’s a big event for these guys.”
How many moments of glory did Frank steal?
In the threads there were various speculations about his income and wealth, something like over $500k to a million/year plus a home probably in the few million range. He was 70 and retired, had grandchildren a successful career, and still was involved in community service. He also could run at 70 (had a heart issue but still ran the day of his suicide) so he had far more going for himself than most of us could ever imagine. I’m over the cheating, that’s been proven without a doubt. I don’t even care about the why when it comes to his cheating, it’s the fact that the vast majority of cheaters don’t kill themselves (and they were all subject to the same public exposure as Frank). Any benefit yet to come from this won’t be a stupid law that has no chance of success, but maybe an understanding of how quickly a bad personal situation can convince someone who is otherwise well off to take their own life. At least we’ll know it’s a possible outcome when the next Frank comes along, and if we personally know the person maybe we know to intervene.
Good questions wrote:
He also could run at 70 (had a heart issue but still ran the day of his suicide) so he had far more going for himself than most of us could ever imagine.
Did he have a heart issue? He said he did, but he lied a lot in the last few months of his life... I would be interested to see what the coroner had to say.
This is a another decent read:
https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a20791710/what-drives-people-who-cheat-in-road-races/Egg Beater wrote:
smartyiak wrote:
I would be interested in a follow up article from a psychological stand point. I mean: Meza cheated... and I think most of the cheating has been hashed out. We have the details or a general idea about the ones that haven't had the fine-tooth comb treatment.
But, Meza was a respected physician who came from poverty. He attained degrees, wealth, and status in the community. He was beloved by a family and as a coach. He was a founder of at least one influential group (Aztec). He had kid(s) who turned out to be successful doctors. Essentially, he had the best life.
But, what he really wanted was to be recognized as a runner; it really could have been anything...he just chose running. All of the things most of us would love to have, he had...but that still wasn't enough. Most of us just accept that we won't be in the .01% of anything....I do anyways. We strive to be the best , but won't lie, cheat, and steal to get there....but for some, that's not enough.
Then there was the planning. I can follow a plan...I can listen to a coach, but I could not have done what was necessary for Meza to accomplish the cheating he did...even if I wanted to. And, he had to do it in a way that (most) people wouldn't discover the fraud. It was almost as much effort as just doing the running....not really, but you get what I'm saying.
I just find the whole story fascinating....way more interesting than some "one off" who wants a BQ or an "Influencer" who wants toI look good to followers. I just think it's an interesting case study...then again, I'm not a psychologist. .
Exactly, it's not about trying to get the guy DQ'd from races at this point. I find the whole thing fascinating, mainly the why, somewhat the how.
As for his family, who point to people on this website and others as being the problem for exposing him; here's a guy setting records in marathons, did they go to any of these races? Did they ever go and support him and watch him run these races over the past decade? The athletes he coached, did they ever go watch him race? His colleagues at Aztlan, did they watch him race? He was setting records for God's sake. It seems like someone would have gone to support him and have photographic evidence vindicating him.
I think that's where some of the continuing interest lies in this story. Just put it in the context of your own life, if you were in a similar status in life, how would you pull this off, who else would know, and more importantly, why would you do it?
Yes. Here is my two cents. (TL;DR warning)
I agree. if someone writes another significant Meza article, I doubt it'll focus specifically on the nuts and bolts of his cheating. It’ll ask deeper questions about why he cheated – how did running “achievements” come to embody such core elements of his psychological profile that exposure of his cheating would lead to his suicide? But Meza’s story is also interesting because of the interplay between Frank Meza and the letsrun board, the explosive reaction of the main stream media, and how that interplay affected Meza's perception of himself in this quickly morphing "virtual" universe. The right journalist could tie these elements together in terms of the coalescing and fragmenting of Meza’s psychology.
In one of his interviews, Meza talked about how he watched TV growing up, and realized that the people he saw on all these programs were so different from him – short, brown, Latino, working class, etc. But while he couldn’t identify with that Hollywood ideal from the 50’s and 60’s, he found validation in running success. Moreover, as I recall, he linked his running to his emerging sense of cultural identity, in particular to his Native American background. That connection, for example, informed his naming of Aztland Athletics.
I suspect that Meza could have weathered almost any other kind of exposure better than that of running cheat – he could have been caught cheating on his wife, or on his tax returns, or some sort of medical malpractice, and he might have been able to draw on his resources to pull through. Yet running was different to him.
As far as the interplay, the Meza story seems to me like a strange, postmodern tragedy. Meza had this need, perhaps, for validation – for a sense of himself as helping to lift up and redefine his community – and for his community honoring him for that very work. But somehow that validation wasn’t enough and so the need became a tragic flaw, driving him not just to high levels of career performance, but also ultimately drawing him into a pattern of serial cheating. I would call his story a postmodern tragedy because, what does he choose to cheat at? Something that to most people is probably inherently meaningless – but not to him and not to those who frequent the Letsrun boards. How is it that hobbyjogging holds such power?
According to the LA Times article and some of the other references by his family, Meza evidently followed the thread as it developed. To categorize the thread as "cyber-bullying" or an “online mob” (as the Outside article calls it) misses the point. I think, for Meza, the thread became a "cyber-chorus," representing both evidence of cheating and "running community" opinion in real time. You can imagine him clicking into the thread, seeing the next deadesq posting and subsequent commentary -- trying to put it aside, but finding himself pulled back again and again (much like many of us) to see what new had been posted. The thread wasn’t shaming him; it was exposing him one post, one picture at a time, inexorably chipping away at a pillar of his individual and cultural identity.
Beyond Meza himself, for multiple main stream media sources, the thread also represented the “outrage of the running community.” To those who care less about running, the thread proved that Meza’s cheating was relevant, that it was a real transgression.
Meza had extraordinary resources -- he could have packed up and spent the summer and fall in some Mediterranean villa, riding the thing out in luxurious exile. He had family, friends, church, doctors & counselors to whom he might have turned for support. And yet, he couldn't turn away.
Neither, it seems, can we.
Bored Admin wrote:
Ernest wrote:
I give permission to board administrators here to confirm I have only ever posted non-anonymously. Feel free to do likewise.
Stop being a troll and focus on the discussion and not the people.
As someone who has run a ton of sub 3 marathons, this has nothing really to do with whether jerrislee or anyone else has something worthwhile to add.
Hey dork. You l ow what you did right there?
Post anonymously.
It never ceases to amaze me that people think because they have a registered username that they are somehow not anonymous.
I know a lot of us older hobby joggers think we could have been better , or were better, but never proved it. There is some self loathing there. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Something maybe we want to fix when we get older, but can't. If we are lucky and can actually run, we prove to ourselves that we are just good at running , nothing really great. Running with age -grading is the one real sporting area where you can try to prove that you could have been a contender. You can't do that if you have regrets about baseball, basketball or football. With running , good timing mat strategies, or some testosterone and/or something else can make a lot of difference.
Maybe we aren't as good as we thought we were and admit it , or can't admit it and the self loathing pushes a guy to cheat? I bet it's has something to do with whatever syndrome pushes some masters to dope and keep secrets about it and maybe had something to do with Frank. I think plenty cheat with a mixture of simple greed in there too.
My other theory, and nobody likes it , is that he was doing it to impress people for reasons of misguided competition drives , one-upsmanship, or to gain some peoples' trust for some reason. Don't hate me or get that deleted, because of what it could mean. It's just a darn theory. I tend to think frank was in the impress people category , because someone wanting to see if they could have done better when they were young would try the PEDS. They would think ok. all they do is make up the difference in T thatI had when I was young and would have proved how great I am , if it weren't for all the work I had to do , or classes I had to take, or if that first kid wouldn't have come along, so it's none of anyone's business.
Onwards wrote:
Egg Beater wrote:
Exactly, it's not about trying to get the guy DQ'd from races at this point. I find the whole thing fascinating, mainly the why, somewhat the how.
As for his family, who point to people on this website and others as being the problem for exposing him; here's a guy setting records in marathons, did they go to any of these races? Did they ever go and support him and watch him run these races over the past decade? The athletes he coached, did they ever go watch him race? His colleagues at Aztlan, did they watch him race? He was setting records for God's sake. It seems like someone would have gone to support him and have photographic evidence vindicating him.
I think that's where some of the continuing interest lies in this story. Just put it in the context of your own life, if you were in a similar status in life, how would you pull this off, who else would know, and more importantly, why would you do it?
Yes. Here is my two cents. (TL;DR warning)
I agree. if someone writes another significant Meza article, I doubt it'll focus specifically on the nuts and bolts of his cheating. It’ll ask deeper questions about why he cheated – how did running “achievements” come to embody such core elements of his psychological profile that exposure of his cheating would lead to his suicide? But Meza’s story is also interesting because of the interplay between Frank Meza and the letsrun board, the explosive reaction of the main stream media, and how that interplay affected Meza's perception of himself in this quickly morphing "virtual" universe. The right journalist could tie these elements together in terms of the coalescing and fragmenting of Meza’s psychology.
In one of his interviews, Meza talked about how he watched TV growing up, and realized that the people he saw on all these programs were so different from him – short, brown, Latino, working class, etc. But while he couldn’t identify with that Hollywood ideal from the 50’s and 60’s, he found validation in running success. Moreover, as I recall, he linked his running to his emerging sense of cultural identity, in particular to his Native American background. That connection, for example, informed his naming of Aztland Athletics.
I suspect that Meza could have weathered almost any other kind of exposure better than that of running cheat – he could have been caught cheating on his wife, or on his tax returns, or some sort of medical malpractice, and he might have been able to draw on his resources to pull through. Yet running was different to him.
As far as the interplay, the Meza story seems to me like a strange, postmodern tragedy. Meza had this need, perhaps, for validation – for a sense of himself as helping to lift up and redefine his community – and for his community honoring him for that very work. But somehow that validation wasn’t enough and so the need became a tragic flaw, driving him not just to high levels of career performance, but also ultimately drawing him into a pattern of serial cheating. I would call his story a postmodern tragedy because, what does he choose to cheat at? Something that to most people is probably inherently meaningless – but not to him and not to those who frequent the Letsrun boards. How is it that hobbyjogging holds such power?
According to the LA Times article and some of the other references by his family, Meza evidently followed the thread as it developed. To categorize the thread as "cyber-bullying" or an “online mob” (as the Outside article calls it) misses the point. I think, for Meza, the thread became a "cyber-chorus," representing both evidence of cheating and "running community" opinion in real time. You can imagine him clicking into the thread, seeing the next deadesq posting and subsequent commentary -- trying to put it aside, but finding himself pulled back again and again (much like many of us) to see what new had been posted. The thread wasn’t shaming him; it was exposing him one post, one picture at a time, inexorably chipping away at a pillar of his individual and cultural identity.
Beyond Meza himself, for multiple main stream media sources, the thread also represented the “outrage of the running community.” To those who care less about running, the thread proved that Meza’s cheating was relevant, that it was a real transgression.
Meza had extraordinary resources -- he could have packed up and spent the summer and fall in some Mediterranean villa, riding the thing out in luxurious exile. He had family, friends, church, doctors & counselors to whom he might have turned for support. And yet, he couldn't turn away.
Neither, it seems, can we.
Obviously, Meza had a near pathological need for positive attention where what was real, his successf career in medicine, wasn't enough and was driven to cheat in Marathons. Before he was caught for good, his bio would would have consisted of his professional accomplishments and later on his success as a marathoner. After he was caught, his bio effectively consisted of three words, "Serial Marathon Cheat." For someone whose self-image was so important, being outed would have been especially devastating and at age 70 there was no chance of redemption.
I was thinking the same thing about getting away, maybe to a small city on the California coast. For me, maybe I could have distracted myself with reading and watching sports on TV until I could accept what happened. I'm guessing that Meza was brooding about it constantly and just couldn't see it ever getting any better.
Getting away from it all would have been the way to go. Phoenix would be a short drive away. He was just DQd from LAM, the bike pics were showing evidence of how, and he was probably thinking that it wouldn’t end with LA just like it did with his CIM DQs but now all his other races would be reviewed. He should of just accepted the LA dq as he did the other ones and left town. Just read an article about someone popped for doping who freely admitted to taking a substance but didn’t know it was banned. Whether she knew it or not she admitted it and the story ended, can’t even recall or even care about her name.
Knew more was coming wrote:
Getting away from it all would have been the way to go. Phoenix would be a short drive away. He was just DQd from LAM, the bike pics were showing evidence of how, and he was probably thinking that it wouldn’t end with LA just like it did with his CIM DQs but now all his other races would be reviewed. He should of just accepted the LA dq as he did the other ones and left town. Just read an article about someone popped for doping who freely admitted to taking a substance but didn’t know it was banned. Whether she knew it or not she admitted it and the story ended, can’t even recall or even care about her name.
i doubt it would have been that easy.
an athlete admits to innocently using a banned substance and all is forgiven (whether or not it's true)
Frank deliberately deceived friends, family, employers, employees, patients, kids he was mentoring and the general running community with extensive, meticulously planned fraud.
This thing had permeated into is whole life, it would have been much more difficult to simply get away from.
triathleteguru wrote:
How many moments of glory did Frank steal?
Somewhere between 7 and 40?
triathleteguru wrote:
How many moments of glory did Frank steal?
Hey, why don’t you send me an email. Email link attached.
Very Anonymous Poster wrote:
Bored Admin wrote:
Hey dork. You l ow what you did right there?
Post anonymously.
It never ceases to amaze me that people think because they have a registered username that they are somehow not anonymous.
"Hey dork. You l ow what you did right there?"
^I really tried to understand that. Some insult, then gibberish.
"It never ceases to amaze me that people think because they have a registered username that they are somehow not anonymous"
^As noted numerous times in this thread, including the message just replied to, aside from using a Registered account (only) I post using my real name, which is not common. That, combined with various other details offered throughout archived threads here, means it would be a simple matter to discern my identity IRL.
It doesn't really surprise me folks other folks choose to use online anonymity to post low-grade or unkind content they don't want to be accountable for, but at least read posts you reply to.
Good ? wrote:
triathleteguru wrote:
How many moments of glory did Frank steal?
Somewhere between 7 and 40?
It's not just those displaced on the podiums, whose necks never wore medals (or the right ones).
I recall some decent Age-Grouper Meza's age from Winnipeg (or thereabouts) who clued in to Frank early - and was ready to give up the sport because Frank's impossible results kept appearing.
If Meza posted official records, that would have set a difficult bar for legit competitors.
But anyone who legit trained and left it all on course should be furious at Meza (and anyone who knew, enabled or helped), because it says years or sacrifice and effort can be rendered meaningless when someone cheats and prospers.
You may think of Frank as a one-off, or a rare breed - but believe me, he's far from it. I'm referring to intentional repeat cheats affecting the competitive result.
Ernest wrote:
You may think of Frank as a one-off, or a rare breed - but believe me, he's far from it. I'm referring to intentional repeat cheats affecting the competitive result.
Yeah, I think you are right with this statement! Read that first running world article, it talks about some race directors that just don’t care about correcting results...
Ernest wrote:
You may think of Frank as a one-off, or a rare breed - but believe me, he's far from it. I'm referring to intentional repeat cheats affecting the competitive result.
I certainly don't view him as a one or two or three time cheat. I see him as a serial cheat for years closer to Kip Litton and Kelly Agnew. Seven is the current number that appears to have been proven. Somewhere north of 20+ is what I would guess.
Very Anonymous Poster wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me that people think because they have a registered username that they are somehow not anonymous.
At least when you always post with the same registered username you have to stand by what you have said previously.
The main reason people post with unregistered names that change all the time, is because they are trolls or cannot back up what they say.
...and besides, the admin knows who the registered posters are.
triathleteguru wrote:
Ernest wrote:
You may think of Frank as a one-off, or a rare breed - but believe me, he's far from it. I'm referring to intentional repeat cheats affecting the competitive result.
Yeah, I think you are right with this statement! Read that first running world article, it talks about some race directors that just don’t care about correcting results...
I have first-hand experience identifying race cheats.
In past, I worked with timing companies and Race Directors to remove many egregious cheaters, some quite deliberate and repeat cheats, cut from the same cloth as Frank, winning age groups and sometimes quite successful outside running.
Even with overwhelming proof, it would often be difficult to affect a DQ as RD's were to harried, incompetent, of fearful to post a DQ, or even quietly remove a result. Even then, these corrections would be made weeks or months later, long after awards and prizes were (incorrectly) distributed.
I never had a website and never publicized it - I did it because honest efforts need to be recognized with honest results. Some RDs get that - others not so much.
Interestingly, the same questionable ethics that leads one think it's OK to cheat at racing translates to dubious choices outside running.
With Ruiz, we saw how she lied about a brain tumour, was convicted of fraud, and busted for a large drug deal.
With one person I helped DQ, that person was also convicted of securities fraud.
Ernest wrote:
triathleteguru wrote:
Yeah, I think you are right with this statement! Read that first running world article, it talks about some race directors that just don’t care about correcting results...
I have first-hand experience identifying race cheats.
In past, I worked with timing companies and Race Directors to remove many egregious cheaters, some quite deliberate and repeat cheats, cut from the same cloth as Frank, winning age groups and sometimes quite successful outside running.
Even with overwhelming proof, it would often be difficult to affect a DQ as RD's were to harried, incompetent, of fearful to post a DQ, or even quietly remove a result. Even then, these corrections would be made weeks or months later, long after awards and prizes were (incorrectly) distributed.
I never had a website and never publicized it - I did it because honest efforts need to be recognized with honest results. Some RDs get that - others not so much.
Interestingly, the same questionable ethics that leads one think it's OK to cheat at racing translates to dubious choices outside running.
With Ruiz, we saw how she lied about a brain tumour, was convicted of fraud, and busted for a large drug deal.
With one person I helped DQ, that person was also convicted of securities fraud.
Seems we have similar backgrounds! I've got firsthand experience as well, only as a timer as well as the logistics director for a large event company in the midwest. In the mid 2000's, I was the logistics director and purchased a timing system so we could stop paying others to time our races. With a computer science degree, timing and the equipment were right up my ally. First thing I would do with results was to sort and look for crazy splits. Had no hesitation with issuing a DQ for someone with crazy splits and let them come to me and try to explain it. Can't remember a single time someone would come and defend a crazy split!
That's one thing that really bugs me and maybe why I'm having such a hard time letting this go. At least since 2014/2015, all the timers and large races, including the LA Marathon, knew Frank Meza was cheating and did nothing! Would love to see something written by Derek or someone asking this question - Why was Frank allowed to blatantly cheat at will throughout CA for 5 years? Especially after you were put on notice that he was a cheater? Did you just want his $180 entry fee?
It's not just those displaced on the podiums, whose necks never wore medals (or the right ones).
I recall some decent Age-Grouper Meza's age from Winnipeg (or thereabouts) who clued in to Frank early - and was ready to give up the sport because Frank's impossible results kept appearing.
If Meza posted official records, that would have set a difficult bar for legit competitors.
But anyone who legit trained and left it all on course should be furious at Meza (and anyone who knew, enabled or helped), because it says years or sacrifice and effort can be rendered meaningless when someone cheats and prospers.
You may think of Frank as a one-off, or a rare breed - but believe me, he's far from it. I'm referring to intentional repeat cheats affecting the competitive result.[/quote]
You asked before if his family knew or thought they might. I tend to agree with that. His son was a good runner and attended some races with him. You would think that he would know his dad wasn't running with him for significant portions of the race. He also had runners from his group at some races where he took those places/medals. I just can't imagine there wasn't a group of people how knew exactly what was going on either. You warm up with runners at races and if people are of comparable ability, you see them on a course. With marathons or long races that occurs for such long periods of races. His son ran sub 3:10 I think. You are telling me he never had the idea to pace him through half of the race? It doesn't add up. Here are some of his races:
https://www.athlinks.com/athletes/375783990/results
His 5k time in 2015 at his age would have been really respectable. But he somehow managed to run roughly that pace for 26.2. Crazy. People had to know.
His 5k time in 2015 at his age would have been really respectable. But he somehow managed to run roughly that pace for 26.2. Crazy. People had to know.
I can't see that 5K time being legit either.