doubler wrote:
I am not playing the victim card by responding critically to those that slanted their reporting, purposely misrepresented conversations or are claiming that I encourage or take part in bullying/harassing behavior.
You are playing the victim card.
Great article from Outside and Martin Fritz Huber on this saga. I recommend everyone read it.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2399486/frank-meza-marathoner-death
That article has been posted before. It's terrible. The allegations of "bullying" are totally unsubstantiated. While nobody can know for certain that Frank wasn't getting contacted through private channels, there was no "bullying" on the Letsrun thread. Just collaborative investigation. As others have pointed out, the timing of Frank's tragic death actually undercuts the narrative that this article suggests: The internet "mob" was only significant in that it discovered the truth. It wasn't till mainstream media picked up the story (which in turn inspired some professional consequences for Frank) that he took such drastic measures.
What the article is good at is demonstrating how easy people find it to impose a narrative that they like on a situation, even when there are no facts whatsoever to support it.
MF Huber wrote:
Great article from Outside and Martin Fritz Huber on this saga. I recommend everyone read it.
Why? it is rubbish
ExpertKipWatcher wrote:
MF Huber wrote:
Great article from Outside and Martin Fritz Huber on this saga. I recommend everyone read it.
Why? it is rubbish
I'd think it was rubbish too if it was about me.
Raddison wrote:
Smoove wrote:
At some point, the further condemnation of Frank became pointless. We reached that point long ago, no matter how much triathlete guru and some others try to rationalize their way to validate continued efforts on this front. Saying that doesn’t make me a cheat, a sympathizer, an enabler or anything else. It makes me a person who realizes that those who were left behind by Frank have lost such that further emphasis on this topic only further punished those who have been punished enough, even if they continue to cover up for Frank (by the way, is it really so hard to understand that family members might cover up for a bad actor in the hopes of saving some positive outlook on him or to save his reputation when they honestly thought he was a good person overall?).
Some folks seem to be missing a bit of perspective.
I agree with your post though I have one caveat. I do think the Frank Meza story is worthy of a professional write up similar to that of Kip Litton in the New Yorker. That doesn't mean that the crowd sourced investigation on LRC should continue, it should not. But rather, if Derek and a professional writer were to collaborate and continue investigation in private, I believe a very interesting and morally instructive account could be produced. However, I also think that nothing should be published until several years have passed and the shock and pain of Frank's suicide have passed.
So much of Frank's story reminds me of the Donald Crowhurst story from the 1960s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8boBxNlQSUMhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Crowhurst
Yes, very similar aspects with the Donald Crowhurst story! I highly suggest watching the documentary on youtube, Deep Water. I only learned about it after Frank's death and have watched it then.
I too agree that the Frank Meza story is worthy of a story similar to the one about Kip Litton or this one about Julie Miller -
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/10/sports/julie-miller-ironman-triathlon-cheat.htmlthough I disagree on waiting several years. This is what I've been advocating for and have started writing my own which I will try to get published as an opinion piece somewhere if and when I actually complete it.
With regards to Smoove's statement above - "At some point, the further condemnation of Frank became pointless. We reached that point long ago, no matter how much triathlete guru and some others try to rationalize their way to validate continued efforts on this front." This statement coincides with others questioning why this thread continues on or should be allowed to as people have called for it to get shut down.
There is a narrative that has now been accepted in the MSM, Frank Meza was cyber bullied to death by the running internet mob. Many who have bought into this narrative believe Frank's claims to have only left the course to pee. Anyone who objectively looks at the evidence know this is patently false. Others say that Frank was DQ'd from the 2019 LA Marathon, that should have been enough. What most people don't comprehend is the elaborate and likely decade long cheating that Frank had entangled himself in. Derek states as much in his recent post "What got lost by posting the evidence across multiple articles was the scope of the story. The story of Frank Meza covers many races over many years. Many casual readers do not realize that this story began well before The 2019 LA Marathon."
So, if things are left as is, we have Frank's family left to believe he was bullied to death over the 2019 LA Marathon from which he was unjustly disqualified. We have 90% of the public believing he might have cheated in one marathon, but that he was disqualified from it and the bullying is what pushed him over the edge. When in reality, the story which has not been clearly told is that Frank Meza entangled himself in a web of lies going back a decade or more and unfortunately saw no way out. Rather than the "bullying", it is likely the shame from the truth coming out that drove Frank over the edge.
We can take two different paths here. We can accept that a false narrative has won out and out of respect for Frank's memory and the feelings of his family let them believe the false narrative. Or, we can continue to examine what happened with the hopes that the narrative will get set straight with an article as pointed out above.
Why does it matter that the narrative get set straight? With the false narrative, we have Tina Meza pushing for an anti bullying law to get passed. With the correct narrative, maybe race directors will realize that results do matter and that steps should be taken for runner accountability. That a quick a decisive decision to DQ over timing anomalies might be the better decision than long drawn out decisions to DQ. Or perhaps a national governing body could step up with some type of solution? Perhaps a consortium of races and timing companies?
Maybe someone should write an article about the LA Marathon, what culpability do or should they have in this debacle? They had more than enough evidence to issue a DQ of Frank in 2015, but failed to do so. What does it say about a race that when actually going through their 2019 results to DQ Frank, they have to also retroactively remove the 4th place finisher from the age group as well? Do they care at all about results? It cost's $180 to register right now for the 2020 LA Marathon. A through examination of one age group, the men's 70-74 found two in the top 5 that didn't belong!
Have people asked the question, what if Frank had been clearly DQ'd for cheating and wasn't given the wiggle room that he was? On the day he died by suicide, his family still believed he hadn't cheated. If the LA Marathon and Phoenix Marathon had released clear statements that Frank had cheated, perhaps those closest to Frank could have intervened in his life?
Or should we bury our heads in the sand?
Man in the Mirror wrote:
I'd think it was rubbish too if it was about me.
Some people like fiction, I don't enjoy it.
While I have no problem if someone thinks that this would make for an interesting feature length article, let's take a look at some of your assertion here.
triathleteguru wrote:
What most people don't comprehend is the elaborate and likely decade long cheating that Frank had entangled himself in.
We have 90% of the public believing he might have cheated in one marathon, but that he was disqualified from it and the bullying is what pushed him over the edge.
That simply is not true. Google Frank's name and the LRC thread pops up on the first page. Poke around at the other articles that come up, and the fact that he has been accused of cheating repeatedly is there for all to see.
triathleteguru wrote:
So, if things are left as is, we have Frank's family left to believe he was bullied to death over the 2019 LA Marathon from which he was unjustly disqualified.
I doubt that they truly believe this. I think that they loved Frank and want to preserve his reputation and legacy. Heck, they may even be embarrassed by the whole thing. Either way, who cares what they decide to tell themselves or others to make themselves feel better? Why deprive them of their tiny bit of solace, especially when no reasonable person who makes any inquiry into the facts cannot conclude anything other than that Frank repeatedly cheated?
triathleteguru wrote:
We can take two different paths here. We can accept that a false narrative has won out and out of respect for Frank's memory and the feelings of his family let them believe the false narrative. Or, we can continue to examine what happened with the hopes that the narrative will get set straight with an article as pointed out above.
The false narrative has not won out. See above.
triathleteguru wrote:
Or should we bury our heads in the sand?
There are literally thousands of posts here that expose Frank's cheating and there were dozens of articles and television segments on his cheating. No one buried their head in the sand; Frank was exposed.
I think you should strip away the rationalizations that you are somehow doing this for Frank's family's benefit, or for the sake of Frank's competitors, or for the benefit of Gene Dykes or the memory of Ed Whitlock and ask yourself why you seem to care about this so much even after the guy has been fully exposed as a cheat, he holds no official world records and he is dead. I get that your senses of order and justice were offended by this - mine were too - but at some point, you have to be honest with yourself and ask yourself what drives your continued focus on this.
triathleteguru wrote:
Raddison wrote:
I agree with your post though I have one caveat. I do think the Frank Meza story is worthy of a professional write up similar to that of Kip Litton in the New Yorker. That doesn't mean that the crowd sourced investigation on LRC should continue, it should not. But rather, if Derek and a professional writer were to collaborate and continue investigation in private, I believe a very interesting and morally instructive account could be produced. However, I also think that nothing should be published until several years have passed and the shock and pain of Frank's suicide have passed.
So much of Frank's story reminds me of the Donald Crowhurst story from the 1960s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8boBxNlQSUMhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_CrowhurstYes, very similar aspects with the Donald Crowhurst story! I highly suggest watching the documentary on youtube, Deep Water. I only learned about it after Frank's death and have watched it then.
I too agree that the Frank Meza story is worthy of a story similar to the one about Kip Litton or this one about Julie Miller -
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/10/sports/julie-miller-ironman-triathlon-cheat.htmlthough I disagree on waiting several years. This is what I've been advocating for and have started writing my own which I will try to get published as an opinion piece somewhere if and when I actually complete it.
With regards to Smoove's statement above - "At some point, the further condemnation of Frank became pointless. We reached that point long ago, no matter how much triathlete guru and some others try to rationalize their way to validate continued efforts on this front." This statement coincides with others questioning why this thread continues on or should be allowed to as people have called for it to get shut down.
There is a narrative that has now been accepted in the MSM, Frank Meza was cyber bullied to death by the running internet mob. Many who have bought into this narrative believe Frank's claims to have only left the course to pee. Anyone who objectively looks at the evidence know this is patently false. Others say that Frank was DQ'd from the 2019 LA Marathon, that should have been enough. What most people don't comprehend is the elaborate and likely decade long cheating that Frank had entangled himself in. Derek states as much in his recent post "What got lost by posting the evidence across multiple articles was the scope of the story. The story of Frank Meza covers many races over many years. Many casual readers do not realize that this story began well before The 2019 LA Marathon."
So, if things are left as is, we have Frank's family left to believe he was bullied to death over the 2019 LA Marathon from which he was unjustly disqualified. We have 90% of the public believing he might have cheated in one marathon, but that he was disqualified from it and the bullying is what pushed him over the edge. When in reality, the story which has not been clearly told is that Frank Meza entangled himself in a web of lies going back a decade or more and unfortunately saw no way out. Rather than the "bullying", it is likely the shame from the truth coming out that drove Frank over the edge.
We can take two different paths here. We can accept that a false narrative has won out and out of respect for Frank's memory and the feelings of his family let them believe the false narrative. Or, we can continue to examine what happened with the hopes that the narrative will get set straight with an article as pointed out above.
Why does it matter that the narrative get set straight? With the false narrative, we have Tina Meza pushing for an anti bullying law to get passed. With the correct narrative, maybe race directors will realize that results do matter and that steps should be taken for runner accountability. That a quick a decisive decision to DQ over timing anomalies might be the better decision than long drawn out decisions to DQ. Or perhaps a national governing body could step up with some type of solution? Perhaps a consortium of races and timing companies?
Maybe someone should write an article about the LA Marathon, what culpability do or should they have in this debacle? They had more than enough evidence to issue a DQ of Frank in 2015, but failed to do so. What does it say about a race that when actually going through their 2019 results to DQ Frank, they have to also retroactively remove the 4th place finisher from the age group as well? Do they care at all about results? It cost's $180 to register right now for the 2020 LA Marathon. A through examination of one age group, the men's 70-74 found two in the top 5 that didn't belong!
Have people asked the question, what if Frank had been clearly DQ'd for cheating and wasn't given the wiggle room that he was? On the day he died by suicide, his family still believed he hadn't cheated. If the LA Marathon and Phoenix Marathon had released clear statements that Frank had cheated, perhaps those closest to Frank could have intervened in his life?
Or should we bury our heads in the sand?
90% of the public? Come on. 90% of the public didn't hear about the story and wouldn't care if they had. This wasn't the biggest story since O.J.
Most runners don't have any interest in cheating so I don't believe it's as big a problem as people are making it out to be. Nobody is going to cheat their way to a 2:10 and if a handful cheat to get a BQ it's not the end of the world. RDs can put extra volunteers out on the course to watch for people leaving the course to "pee", but split analysis works well and was used to DQ Meza from the CIM.
Tina Meza, like Trump, will lose her battle against the 1st Amendment.
MF Huber wrote:
Great article from Outside and Martin Fritz Huber on this saga. I recommend everyone read it.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2399486/frank-meza-marathoner-death
It's like the Meza clan hired a Russian Troll farm.
Anonymous cowards and sock puppets out in full force, in this thread and elsewhere, using the same "bullying" techniques they claim to decry to browbeat others.
This was posted and discussed earlier in this thread.
The article is heavily sympathetic, flawed, biased, appears written for (or at request of) the Meza clan, and makes no effort at balanced reporting.
The author also clearly monitors and/or participates in this thread.
It suggests Franks cheating is hypothetical. While his "bullying" is certainty, that being the only explanation for Frank's suicide. Anyone calling out Meza's cheating is tarred-and-feathered, part of an "internet mob".
It also floats a ridiculous conclusion only someone who actually raced the same event as Meza has reasonable claim to question his bogus result(s) - and anyone else must be a (bullying) "random cyber-troll".
Please. This piece is a veritable showcase of logical fallacy.
Meza orchestrated a complex, years-long corruption of the competitive result, the extent of which is only partially known. Bogus results still stand.
Franks repeated cheating is proven fact. Has there been a single example of Frank's family acknowledging this?
How does a deception so pervasive go unnoticed by training partners, friends, and family members?
Were they not on course cheering him on and chronicling his record-setting efforts? What did they know or suspect? Did he have help? How did Frank's bike(s) end up on course? Was the infamous bike still in his possession? Did Frank course-cut other ways? In a car driven by someone else?
There are a lot of valid questions his family, supporters, and potential accomplices seem to be working hard to keep from being asked.
Was Frank protecting them when he leaped to his death?
MF Huber wrote:
Great article from Outside and Martin Fritz Huber on this saga. I recommend everyone read it.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2399486/frank-meza-marathoner-death
It brings a lot of things into perspective of what went on here and on the Marathon Invest. site.
Thanks for sharing.
Ernest wrote:
MF Huber wrote:
Great article from Outside and Martin Fritz Huber on this saga. I recommend everyone read it.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2399486/frank-meza-marathoner-deathIt's like the Meza clan hired a Russian Troll farm.
Anonymous cowards and sock puppets out in full force, in this thread and elsewhere, using the same "bullying" techniques they claim to decry to browbeat others.
This was posted and discussed earlier in this thread.
The article is heavily sympathetic, flawed, biased, appears written for (or at request of) the Meza clan, and makes no effort at balanced reporting.
The author also clearly monitors and/or participates in this thread.
It suggests Franks cheating is hypothetical. While his "bullying" is certainty, that being the only explanation for Frank's suicide. Anyone calling out Meza's cheating is tarred-and-feathered, part of an "internet mob".
It also floats a ridiculous conclusion only someone who actually raced the same event as Meza has reasonable claim to question his bogus result(s) - and anyone else must be a (bullying) "random cyber-troll".
Please. This piece is a veritable showcase of logical fallacy.
Meza orchestrated a complex, years-long corruption of the competitive result, the extent of which is only partially known. Bogus results still stand.
Franks repeated cheating is proven fact. Has there been a single example of Frank's family acknowledging this?
How does a deception so pervasive go unnoticed by training partners, friends, and family members?
Were they not on course cheering him on and chronicling his record-setting efforts? What did they know or suspect? Did he have help? How did Frank's bike(s) end up on course? Was the infamous bike still in his possession? Did Frank course-cut other ways? In a car driven by someone else?
There are a lot of valid questions his family, supporters, and potential accomplices seem to be working hard to keep from being asked.
Was Frank protecting them when he leaped to his death?
Did you intend that post to be incoherent or did it just come out that way?
The only problem with the Outside article is that it’s a lie. The only mob is the Meza contingent trying to tell us to believe them instead of our eyes.
Interpreter wrote:
Ernest wrote:
It's like the Meza clan hired a Russian Troll farm.
Anonymous cowards and sock puppets out in full force, in this thread and elsewhere, using the same "bullying" techniques they claim to decry to browbeat others.
This was posted and discussed earlier in this thread.
The article is heavily sympathetic, flawed, biased, appears written for (or at request of) the Meza clan, and makes no effort at balanced reporting.
The author also clearly monitors and/or participates in this thread.
It suggests Franks cheating is hypothetical. While his "bullying" is certainty, that being the only explanation for Frank's suicide. Anyone calling out Meza's cheating is tarred-and-feathered, part of an "internet mob".
It also floats a ridiculous conclusion only someone who actually raced the same event as Meza has reasonable claim to question his bogus result(s) - and anyone else must be a (bullying) "random cyber-troll".
Please. This piece is a veritable showcase of logical fallacy.
Meza orchestrated a complex, years-long corruption of the competitive result, the extent of which is only partially known. Bogus results still stand.
Franks repeated cheating is proven fact. Has there been a single example of Frank's family acknowledging this?
How does a deception so pervasive go unnoticed by training partners, friends, and family members?
Were they not on course cheering him on and chronicling his record-setting efforts? What did they know or suspect? Did he have help? How did Frank's bike(s) end up on course? Was the infamous bike still in his possession? Did Frank course-cut other ways? In a car driven by someone else?
There are a lot of valid questions his family, supporters, and potential accomplices seem to be working hard to keep from being asked.
Was Frank protecting them when he leaped to his death?
Did you intend that post to be incoherent or did it just come out that way?
^Example of at least two logical fallacies; "False Dilemma" and "Begging the Claim".
Let me condense it for those with short attention spans:
"There are a lot of valid questions his family, supporters, and potential accomplices seem to be working hard to keep from being asked."
Ernest wrote:
Interpreter wrote:
Did you intend that post to be incoherent or did it just come out that way?
^Example of at least two logical fallacies; "False Dilemma" and "Begging the Claim".
Let me condense it for those with short attention spans:
"There are a lot of valid questions his family, supporters, and potential accomplices seem to be working hard to keep from being asked."
What are those questions?
Are you asking those questions?
Is the Meza family working to keep you from asking those questions?
The author seems to regard this site's users ("vigilantes") with disdain, though he is one himself, and has been for years.
Here's another article of his, which prophetically cautions "Cheat at your own peril."
https://www.outsideonline.com/2040991/how-online-vigilantes-take-down-cheating-runners
Username Withheld wrote:
Ernest wrote:
^Example of at least two logical fallacies; "False Dilemma" and "Begging the Claim".
Let me condense it for those with short attention spans:
"There are a lot of valid questions his family, supporters, and potential accomplices seem to be working hard to keep from being asked."
What are those questions?
Are you asking those questions?
Is the Meza family working to keep you from asking those questions?
If you actually read my post, you'd see I just posed 10 questions...
1. Franks repeated cheating is proven fact. Has there been a single example of Frank's family acknowledging this?
2. How does a deception so pervasive go unnoticed by training partners, friends, and family members?
3. Were they not on course cheering him on and chronicling his record-setting efforts?
4. What did they know or suspect?
5. Did he have help?
6. How did Frank's bike(s) end up on course?
7. Was the infamous bike still in his possession?
8. Did Frank course-cut other ways?
9. In a car driven by someone else?
10. Was Frank protecting them when he leaped to his death?
Please stop polluting this thread until you make an effort to actually follow this discussion and offer something substantive.
Ernest wrote:
Username Withheld wrote:
What are those questions?
Are you asking those questions?
Is the Meza family working to keep you from asking those questions?
If you actually read my post, you'd see I just posed 10 questions...
1. Franks repeated cheating is proven fact. Has there been a single example of Frank's family acknowledging this?
2. How does a deception so pervasive go unnoticed by training partners, friends, and family members?
3. Were they not on course cheering him on and chronicling his record-setting efforts?
4. What did they know or suspect?
5. Did he have help?
6. How did Frank's bike(s) end up on course?
7. Was the infamous bike still in his possession?
8. Did Frank course-cut other ways?
9. In a car driven by someone else?
10. Was Frank protecting them when he leaped to his death?
Please stop polluting this thread until you make an effort to actually follow this discussion and offer something substantive.
Frank’s family and friends didn’t work very hard to stop you from asking those questions.
Ernest wrote:
Username Withheld wrote:
What are those questions?
Are you asking those questions?
Is the Meza family working to keep you from asking those questions?
If you actually read my post, you'd see I just posed 10 questions...
1. Franks repeated cheating is proven fact. Has there been a single example of Frank's family acknowledging this?
2. How does a deception so pervasive go unnoticed by training partners, friends, and family members?
3. Were they not on course cheering him on and chronicling his record-setting efforts?
4. What did they know or suspect?
5. Did he have help?
6. How did Frank's bike(s) end up on course?
7. Was the infamous bike still in his possession?
8. Did Frank course-cut other ways?
9. In a car driven by someone else?
10. Was Frank protecting them when he leaped to his death?
Please stop polluting this thread until you make an effort to actually follow this discussion and offer something substantive.
1) Frank's family can say or believe whatever they want.
2) If they were serious runners they would have, but if joggers maybe not.
3) Both CIM and LAM or point-to-point so it's likely they were only at the finish.
4) You'll have to ask them.
5) I doubt it.
6) My theory is that he would park it off the course around the mile mark. He would run the mile and then ride the bike to the 5K point, cross the mat, run another half-mile, leave the course, run back to the bike and then ride to the 10K, and so forth.
7) Did you look in the garage?
8) See #3
9) I doubt it. I live in Sacramento and it would be impossible to drive to all of the 5K points.
10) Protecting them from criminal charges?
Take the High Road wrote:
doubler wrote:
I am not playing the victim card by responding critically to those that slanted their reporting, purposely misrepresented conversations or are claiming that I encourage or take part in bullying/harassing behavior.
You are playing the victim card.
You, your fellow cheaters and the Meza family are playing the victim card
Stop trolling
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!