13.19 guy that only rans 55 miles on average, to good to be true?

Consider percentage of world records.

Lasse Viren did not care about time much. He didn't chase it that much.

But when he did set his 5000 PB, that was the world record.

Also, when running all the heats like they did back than. That's where mileage really helps. Look at what he 76, do you really think he could've did what he did at those games off of 50 MPW?

Look at Donavan Brazier. Very genetically gifted runner. Ran very fast times off of very little training. Longest run he has done is like 7 miles. However, if you give 99.99% of 800m runners his training, they will never come close to the times he has ran. However, despite how genetically gifted he is, it will help him so much. And with the heats at championship events, that has been his greatest Achilles heel.

Can you run very fast times off of very little training? Yes, if you are very genetically gifted. However, for most of the population, they are not genetically gifted. Most have to work a lot more to reach their true potential. High mileage is maximizing your potential.

"Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard."

Let's look at all the white guys who have ran sub 13 for 5000 and their training:

Dieter Baumann:

- Average mileage around 90 MPW. Easy runs were very easy, usually 7 min pace or slower.

- only white person in the modern era to beat the Kenyans and Ethiopians at the 5000m.

-the fastest white person on this list at 12:54

https://www.runnerstribe.com/expert-advice/training-of-1992-olympic-5000m-champion-dieter-baumann-1/

Chris Solinsky:

- often running 120+ MPW in his prime.

- most of his easy runs were sub 6 min pace

- also, heaviest person to ever run sub 13 for 5000

Craig Mottram:

- maintained pretty good mileage, even during track season. “My aerobic fitness is good all year; the base is always there. The basic principal is a lot of running, longer reps and pace runs. There are maybe only six weeks in the year when I’m not at 150 to 170 kilometers for the week. I don’t go much below 140 kilometers a week even when racing in the European summer.”

- Often 110 MPW in the off season. Easy mileage, very easy.

https://www.runnerstribe.com/features/the-training-of-craig-buster-mottram/

Dathan Ritzenhein:

- running north of 80 MPW since high school

- lots of cross training too, given how fragile his body is.

Bob Kennedy:

- spent months in the winter time running 100+ MPW

Matthew Tegenkamp:

- nothing comes up if you look up his training, but since he was coached by Jerry like Chris Solinsky. Guess it was similar to Chris Solinsky.

Galen Rupp:

- when he was in his 5000 prime he would often run around 110 MPW

Does any of the pro low mileage crowd think they would've ran sub 13 on less mileage?

Try to learn the running history. Dieter Baumann was a very bad example . Doping! He told he had brushed his teeth, lol

Ovett was doing 120 mpw in the off season, he did heaps of miles but he often took 2 months off after the season ended.

Subway Surfers wrote:

BergLaufer wrote:

+1

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=74953

Look at Steve Ovett, 100+ MPW in the off season, often less than 50 MPW during track season. Don't know his yearly average, but it doesn't show the whole picture.

Ovett was doing 120 mpw in the off season, he did heaps of miles but he often took 2 months off after the season ended.

It's like closing a factory 2 months and then try to work again lost time. There is a much smarter way for this with getting enough recovery ( witch is of the highest priority) , you just bake it in the program. That's the modern way to do it !

He was framed.

HRE wrote:

TTH wrote:

Story told and written by Joe Henderson.

It was definitely not Joe's story. I think the author was a guy called Rich Kaarlgrad or some such thing. i could verify that by asking Joe but I know it wasn't his story and it definitely was not his style of writing.

Joe Henderson definitely wrote an article for the mag or chapter in one of his books outlining a 5 miler with Mike Boit in exactly the same fashion as you list Rich. A search didn't turn up anything but it was a long time ago that I read it. I'm sure he'd recall it.

Weekly mileage from March through April:

48, 43, 29, 64, 64, 66, 62

Week of Training with notes:

April 24 57.5 inc. 2:53.51 1200m time trial

May 1 43.5

May 8 69

May 15 54.5 2 second PR in the mile

May 22 65 inc. 4x1000 in 2:30.8, 400 jog then 400,300,200 cut down

May 29 54 4 second PR in the 5000

June 5 46.5 0.2 second PR in the mile

June 12 56.5 3 second PR in the 5000

June 19 50

June 26 46 7 second PR in the 5000

July 3 55.5 3 second PR in the mile

However, running low weekly mileage, does not lead to being able to run rounds in a Championship...= failure. You can run a good 5000 one off, but recovery is the element that is missing by keeping the mileage low.

Also, need to keep the Long runs up during the build-up, to hold the endurance.

Longest run for the weeks noted above, at 6:30-6:50 pace:

56:42, 56:00, 58, 38:56, 51:55, 55:20, 44, 56, 40:40, 44:47, 43:17

13:19

Lazy training. Yes, it can be done....but not the right way.

I'll ask him and get back to you.

Not the real Lasse Viren wrote:

Well if you are very genetically gifted and can run 13:19 of off just 50-60 MPW. You can probably run sub or at least near sub 13 minutes for 5000 if said person spent a few months running 100+ MPW.

If you run 13:19 your genetically gifted no matter what your training:) If 100 mpw would get you better results is tougher to say. 50-60 is sort of low but there is a decent crowd of people who set prs at 70-80 (that is a lot more training than 60) and then thought they would be world beaters by adding another 20 mpw and they never come close to those PRs again.

Genuinely interested - where are you getting the paces from? What level of runner would this plan be for?

I thought Norpoth ran for Van Aaken, who preaches high mileage

Not per coach JS wrote:

Subpar Coach JS disagrees with you claiming genetics have nothing to do with it.

Read again what i wrote! Of course I can`t say that talent has nothing to do with world class running.....but as i wrote, genetics doesn`t matter when it comes to reach your individual potential on just low mileage. The genetics you have been given by birth is already there from the start.Whatever you do in training can`t take you higher than what your genes limit ( of course exception of doping).

ck3237 wrote:

I thought Norpoth ran for Van Aaken, who preaches high mileage

Norpoth was coached by van Aaken and van Aaken did advocate high volumes. But van Aaken was as much a theoretician as he was a coach, maybe more so. Those big mileages he gave for people racing various distances were theoretical ideals. I have never, for example, seen a schedule of any marathon runner he coached who ran 40 kilometers every day. His own marathon training was a 10 km run after work each night with his son. Similarly, Norpoth very rarely ran the 24 km days

that van Aaken considered ideal for that distance. Here are nine weeks of Norpoth's training that Antonio Cabral put up here many years ago. These weeks were during his racing season. Antonio said that in winter Norpoth did endurance runs of 70-80 minutes.

Norport 9 summer weeks in 1962

Week 1

MON – warmup+5X2000m/7:30 pace Rec=400m jog + 3X500m in 76sec to 71 sec.

TUE – Travel to Hamburg. 10 kilos easy in Hamburg

WED – 1500m RACE. – 1st in 3:42.8; last 500m in 69.8, last 400 in 54.6

THU – Travel back. Rest day

FRI – warmup + 5X2000m/7:30 pace Rec=400m jog + 4X500m/76sec,74sec,73sec,71sec

SAT - warmup+5X2000m/7: :30 pace Rec=400m jog + 3X500m in 73sec/72sec/71 sec.

SUN - 15 kilos easy run in Wald

Week 2

MON – rest day

TUE – warmup + 15kilos run in Waldniel. 5X3kilos outdoor circuit laps in negative split.

WED – 15kilos easy in Waldniel circuit

THU – 10 kilos easy

FRI – 10kilos easy in Wald.

SAT – warmup + 3X10X200m (first set group average 36.5; second 34.5; third 33.5

fourth 31.7 Rec=200m jog. Last set in 25seconds.

SUN – 20kilos easy in Wald.

Week 3

MON – warmup+5X2000m/7:30 pace Rec=400m jog + 3X500m in 76sec to 71 sec.

TUE – Travel to Hamburg. 10 kilos easy in Hamburg

WED – 1500m RACE. – 1st in 3:42.8; last 500m in 69.8, last 400 in 54.6

THU – Travel back. Rest day

FRI – warmup + 5X2000m/7:30 pace Rec=400m jog + 4X500m/76sec,74sec,73sec,71sec

SAT - warmup+5X2000m/7: :30 pace Rec=400m jog + 3X500m in 73sec/72sec/71 sec.

SUN - 15 kilos easy run in Wald.

Week 4

MON – 10 kilos in Wald.

TUE – rest day

WED –rest day

THU – Travel back. Rest day

FRI – warmup + 5X2000m/7:30 pace Rec=400m jog + 4X500m/76sec,74sec,73sec,71sec

SAT - warmup+5X2000m/7: :30 pace Rec=400m jog + 3X500m in 73sec/72sec/71 sec.

SUN - 15 kilos easy run in Wald.

Week 5

MON – rest day

TUE – travel to Malmo. Rest day

WED – 10 kilos easy

THU – 10 kilos easy

FRI – 3 kilos warmup + 20X1min Tempo 1 minute pause + 4 kilos cooldown

SAT – rest day

SUN - 1500m RACE. In Malmo – 1st in 3:42.0

Week 6

MON – Travel back from Malmo. Rest day

TUE –15kilos run in Waldniel, that´s 5X3kilos outdoor tempo as circuit laps in negative split.

WED – 8 kilos esy run in Wald.

THU – 12 kilos easy

FRI – 15 kilos easy run with SHORT PAUSES FOR RECOVER

SAT – rest day

Week 7

SUN – 15kilos run in Waldniel. 5X3kilos outdoor circuit laps in negative split.

MON – 12 kilos easy

TUE – 15kilos run in Waldniel. 5X3kilos outdoor circuit laps in negative split.

WED – 3 kilos warmup + 20X1min Tempo 1 minute pause + 4 kilos cooldown

THU – rest day

FRI – rest day

SAT – 3000m RACE in 8:17.5

SUN – 10 kilos easy in Wald. with SHORT PAUSES FOR RECOVER

Week 8

MON – warmup+5X2000m/7:30 pace Rec=400m jog + 3X500m in 76sec to 71 sec.

TUE –10 kilos easy

WED – 3 kilos warmup + 20X1min Tempo 1 minute pause + 4 kilos cooldown

THU – Rest day

FRI – warmup + 10X200m in 36sec REC=200m jog + 4X500m/76sec, 74sec,73sec,71sec

SAT – 15 kilos easy run in Wald.

SUN - 15 kilos easy run in Wald. with SHORT PAUSES FOR RECOVER

Week 9

MON - 3 kilos warmup + 20X1min Tempo 1 minute pause + 4 kilos cooldown

TUE – 15 kilos easy

WED – rest day

THU – warmup + 9kilos negative split that´s an outdoor 3X3kilos circuit

FRI - warmup+5X2000m/7:30 pace Rec=400m jog + 3X500m in 76sec to 71 sec.

SAT – warmup + 4X5X200m in 34sec; 31sec 28 sec: 26 sec REC=200m jog + cooldown

SUN - 15 kilos easy run in Wald. with SHORT PAUSES FOR RECOVER

Hodgie-san

RE: Van Aaken and Harald Norporth training insights and 11/23/2004 9:44AM - in reply t

PS

Antonio said that in the winter Norpoth did only one 70-80 minute run a day so again, quite low volume.

HRE wrote:

TTH wrote:

I got this from Joe this morning:

Rich:

Happy Fourth.

No, I have no memory and no record of being in such an event — or any other with Mike Boit. We first met, and then only briefly, when he was a grad student at UO after his running career had wound down.

Joe Henderson definitely wrote an article for the mag or chapter in one of his books outlining a 5 miler with Mike Boit in exactly the same fashion as you list Rich. A search didn't turn up anything but it was a long time ago that I read it. I'm sure he'd recall it.

Well then I guess my memory fails me Rich. Thanks for following up. I'll see if I can find the story proper someplace on the web.

To me, this proves only one thing that I have been suspecting all along: high mileage/threshold (Tinman) training is a myth created by liberals who always want to find an easy way out.

Libertarian Centrist wrote:

To me, this proves only one thing that I have been suspecting all along: high mileage/threshold (Tinman) training is a myth created by liberals who always want to find an easy way out.

Not sure about threshold running. But high mileage was first done(so I gues you can say invented?), by Arthur Newton. And later Zatopek, who influenced Lydiard. And the rest as they say, is history. Not sure about their political views, just they weren't afraid of hard work.