2:19 on 70-80 miles per week.

News Flashy wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

It`s not like that…….What Phil need is normal sleep and then he gets his horse power back.Try to tell this you said to e.g Kipchoge who trains the same way but then also of course more mileage.

Below Average isn't Kipchoge, so don't compare them

You didn`t get the point…… they both do interval workouts year around and as you see in Kipchoge`s case it wont get him low in iron and glycogen.

Aha .. ~! wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Kipchoge who trains the same way but then also of course more mileage.

So you admit that higher mileage is better for performances, under more ideal conditions of course.

No,...more like that Kipchoge trains almost double mileage and still don`t get low in iron and glycogen.

jacksamp wrote:

Hey "Below Average. I've read alot of the thread, but just trying to remember. What did your average 400 repeat times start at when this program began? Just trying to see the comparison from then to now. Low 70's?

Also, do you use your GPS on the bike path for most of the 400's? Just curious. I do this sometimes and oddly find myself struggling on some days. Have almost thought my GPS has bad days and isn't correct.

Lastly, when it has come to the progression of this program and your times coming down. Has it just been fluid and by feel? Or were you aiming to reduce week by week even if it felt harder/uncomfortable?

My first one on 7/2

73.8, 41.7

69.7, 45.6

71.1, 50.5

71.7, 52.1

71.9, 50.6

71.9, 49.9

71.0, 53.7

71.6, 48.2

71.7, 58.3

71.1, 49.5

71.2, 54.5

71.1, 49.2

71.7, 57.9

71.3, 53.1

70.5, 56.9

70.9, 54.5

70.9, 56.1

71.0, 60

71.1, 48.8

71.5, 59.1

Second one on 7/18

71.4, 49.2

69.8, 63.2

69.8, 56.1

70.8, 61.7

70.9, 66.4

69.6, 78.6

70.3, 75.4

69.5, 69.4

70.2, 68.6

70.6, 69.1

70.6, 85.7

70.7, 73.9

70.3, 81.8

70.5, 83.3

69.6, 85.7

70.6, 73.1

70.3, 76.9

70.9, 84.3

70.8, 79.1

70.9, 61.6

This is actually helpful for me to look at. I haven’t really looked back at my workouts. I don’t remember the rest being so long. J.S. gives me a time range to shoot for each week that i do my best to hit, but ultimately I run by feel and hope that “feel” hits the times he gives me.

In good conditions my feel and j.s’s times usually match up. If conditions are poor or I have an off day I usually miss it by quite a bit which can be very discouraging.

The bike path has every 200m marked and painted on the ground for 1609m. The high school and two colleges in town use it for workouts as well. I’ve never actually measured it with a wheel or anything, but I’m confident the person that painted it took the time to measure it. I’ve ran it 100’s of times and it’s always seemed right.

12-15x400@ 66-67 scheduled today

Ran it on the bike path again. 26 degrees this morning but light wind and didn’t have to run in the dark. Wore pants, two long sleeves, and hat and gloves.

68.5, 47.8

67.6, 52.1

68.4, 53.4

67.6, 54.1

69.2, 56.1

66.7, 61.6

69.1, 63.5

68.1, 60.1

69.3, 59.5

68.4, 59.3

70.1, 57.6

68.4, 68.5

69.8, 60.4

67.5, 57.7

I was pretty irritated with the workout right when I finished. I just hate missing my times. After thinking about it for a bit I’m probably being unreasonable. It’s still a fine workout, it just doesn’t get my pumped up for 12x1200 Thur morning. I gotta get my mind back on track. Im going to do my first treadmill workout Thur morning so I can avoid the dark, 20 degree temps and chance of snow. I actually love winter running, but I have to at least give myself a chance to hit my workout times. Good day

jacksamp wrote:

Hey "Below Average. I've read alot of the thread, but just trying to remember. What did your average 400 repeat times start at when this program began? Just trying to see the comparison from then to now. Low 70's?

Lastly, when it has come to the progression of this program and your times coming down. Has it just been fluid and by feel? Or were you aiming to reduce week by week even if it felt harder/uncomfortable?

First 20 x 400m at 71-72 sec average with 50-60 sec rest down back to 120 bpm.

And the question if Phil has aiming to reduce times week by week and if it has been fluid and by feel I remind you I am the coach. I predict the paces from week to week with the Art of coaching and very long experience. My coached runners will only do the paces that I know they have capacity to do at every given workout and still with a good feeling that they had been able to do one more rep at same pace if forced to do .Train, don`t strain !

When the 400s have been on track they were very controlled and with level pace . Treadmill will be very good for the 1200s on Thursday with the treadmill as "pacemaker"......just have to concentrate and stay with the pace 74-75 sec/ 400m .

I did a lot of treadmill tempo runs last winter and really enjoyed it. They were continuous 3-5 mile runs. Any advice on the execution of intervals with short rest? I was thinking just keeping the treadmill running at 4:55 pace and jump on and jump off every 1200m using the hand rails. I’ve never actually tried that so maybe it’s harder to jump back on a moving treadmill than I’m thinking...

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Vo2 Maxxxed Ouuuut! wrote:

Burn out. Not enough base miles in the last 16 weeks, too many workouts. Getting slower for CIM?

This isn`t a phase system with what you call base miles , only enough mileage to back up the workouts.I think you understand your body can`t always respond at normal strength when you don`t get enough sleep? I`m not coaching robots! )))

3 weeks in a row with negative results. That's six bad workouts! You can make excuses for some bad workouts, but not all of them. He peaked last month and needs a break, or just a couple of weeks at 80 miles easy.

Below Average wrote:

I did a lot of treadmill tempo runs last winter and really enjoyed it. They were continuous 3-5 mile runs. Any advice on the execution of intervals with short rest? I was thinking just keeping the treadmill running at 4:55 pace and jump on and jump off every 1200m using the hand rails. I’ve never actually tried that so maybe it’s harder to jump back on a moving treadmill than I’m thinking...

I think the idea is a good one. I have done this before. However, some treadmills will shut down automatically if you are not on it for 30 seconds or so. You might want to double check that. Also, not sure where you are doing the workout. If it's some local gym, watch out for the trainers. I've had issues with someone telling me it wasn't safe before. Whatever!

You could also jump off, slow down the speed to walk pace, do a slow walk, and then increase back up each interval.

Curious - Do you not have some type of indoor facility? I never had a real racing track near me, but there was a local gym that had a good 150meter walking circle that made workouts solid.

Vo2 Maxxxed Ouuuut! wrote:

3 weeks in a row with negative results. That's six bad workouts! You can make excuses for some bad workouts, but not all of them. He peaked last month and needs a break, or just a couple of weeks at 80 miles easy.

He hasn't had 3 weeks in a row of bad workouts. The 400s both last Tuesday and the Tuesday before that went well. His long runs have been solid. It was just the Thursday workout last week that was disappointing, and it really wasn't that bad (still got in 8K of work).

There are two colleges and in my town with very nice indoor facilities. I’m not sure about consistent public use though. I have to look into it. I have ymca membership. I’ve never had anyone hassle me so I can’t imagine anyone will bother me

Four months of 20 x 400 every week has to be mentally and physically draining, that's why most coaches don't repeat the same exact workout week after week, month after month. There are so many other things that you could be doing that would get the same (or better) training stimulus and leave you mentally and physically fresher. Hope the 1,200's go well.

Below Average wrote:

I was pretty irritated with the workout right when I finished. I just hate missing my times. After thinking about it for a bit I’m probably being unreasonable. It’s still a fine workout, it just doesn’t get my pumped up for 12x1200 Thur morning. I gotta get my mind back on track. Im going to do my first treadmill workout Thur morning so I can avoid the dark, 20 degree temps and chance of snow. I actually love winter running, but I have to at least give myself a chance to hit my workout times. Good day

Depending on the type, wearing pants can cause the times to be much slower than usual.

When I was in 9th grade, I ran a 220 wearing sweat pants, racing with others on the track, and was struggling to run several seconds slower than usual. I never again wore any type of pants when running for times. However I also never ran in conditions as cold as you do. I would think light nylon pants would be the easiest on times, but you're probably the best judge of that, and also of what is required for conditions.

Below Average wrote:

I did a lot of treadmill tempo runs last winter and really enjoyed it. They were continuous 3-5 mile runs. Any advice on the execution of intervals with short rest? I was thinking just keeping the treadmill running at 4:55 pace and jump on and jump off every 1200m using the hand rails. I’ve never actually tried that so maybe it’s harder to jump back on a moving treadmill than I’m thinking...

I've tried it both ways. Personally, I much prefer to just keep pressing the buttons and keep going.

Far Out West wrote:

Four months of 20 x 400 every week has to be mentally and physically draining, that's why most coaches don't repeat the same exact workout week after week, month after month. There are so many other things that you could be doing that would get the same (or better) training stimulus and leave you mentally and physically fresher. Hope the 1,200's go well.

Try to tell that to Patrick Sang and his runners Kipchoge and Kamworor. What really is the advantage with this kind of system is the repetitive basics that gives tremendous results and the perfect control, and not to forget the relatively low mileage needed.

Below Average wrote:

I did a lot of treadmill tempo runs last winter and really enjoyed it. They were continuous 3-5 mile runs. Any advice on the execution of intervals with short rest? I was thinking just keeping the treadmill running at 4:55 pace and jump on and jump off every 1200m using the hand rails. I’ve never actually tried that so maybe it’s harder to jump back on a moving treadmill than I’m thinking...

I always did that, just keeping the treadmill running and jump on and off using the hand rails. I really loved to run the treadmill and my longest run was 40 k .The treadmill is a very good "pacemaker" and you can just

concentrate to follow the pace . Be careful when jumping on and off, good luck with the workout . :)

Loving this thread. I'm rooting for a great end result. Seems things are going great overall.

JS - I do have a couple questions on your 20x400 workouts. In most programs, work at VO2max is something touched on for 4-6 weeks of a season/cycle. Mostly because this is some of the harder work a runner will take on. You make this a primary workout in each week throughout the entire season. I'm just curious your view on that? Not saying you are wrong, but what is your take and explanation for doing this weekly vs other programs thinking it will hurt things?

Lastly (maybe already asked), but why do 20x400 to hit Vo2max? I understand the short recovery based on HR, which would lead a runner to hitting 95% to 100% of VO2 for a good period of time in this session. However, why not do intervals over 2mins with HR back to 120 and allow the body to hit 95% to 100% of VO2 for more period of time during the session?

Thank you. Keep up the good work to you both.

That'd be hilarious to do all these workouts on an indoor gym 150m walking track

It looks like a yearly membership for the indoor track is only $180 for the year. It has very limited hrs of availability. Mon-Friday 6:30am-9am and 11:30am-1:30pm, but that will actually work very well for my schedule. It has a 200m flat track and an upper balcony jogging track that is probably close to 300m.