What Is The Purpose of Training at 5k Race Pace - Jack Daniels

don't know why you're stressing about this... just run hard

As I understand it, V02 pace is basically what you can hold for 13- 14 minutes or so. For some people (fast college men), that's very close to their 5k race pace. For others (slow HS kids), it's closer to 2 mile pace.

I wouldn't look too far into it.. velocity VO2max is going to be different based upon a number of factors. "5k effort/pace" is probably just an easy "this should get close enough for the general population" to prescribe.

5000m pace for most people is 90% or more of their capacity... it’s going to stimulate the appropriate systems.

Let's put it this way, you can run a full marathon (in race) at your marathon pace, do you ever run full marathon at marathon pace during training? No, right. At VO2Max pace, you probably can run almost 15 minutes, which is about 5k pace, do you like to this is training? Of course, not. 3-5 minutes is best to get most of the VO2Max training run!

Newer research suggests that your true velocity at VO2 Max can only be sustained for 5-7min. I've never thought it was appropriate to try and accrue 6-8K at this intensity; it's just too demanding to be practical. However, the fractionalization of paces around broader physiological parameters such as LT, Max LASS, VO2, etc all work to stimulate these lab-tested fitness markers. You're never really hitting just one variable in a single training session, so it can therefore be beneficial to mimic the demands of racing in your harder interval workouts (ie- always moving from aerobic to less aerobic intensities, then some high-lactate work, then perhaps some technical speed training). Duration of intensity, especially around 85-90% of V02 Max, is emerging as a key training stimulus from many sources (Seiller, Schwartz, etc), as it can move the needle of the three big ones simultaneously (economy, V02, LT). In practical terms, what I know about the tenets of Jerry Schumacher's key training sessions is to hit 5-9mls of hard work between HM-8K pace... This is all over that 90% average range.

In short, for most of us on here, a 2K time trial in fair conditions would produce a good estimated V02 Max pace per 400m. You need to spend appropriate amounts of time at 70, 80, 90, and nearing 100% of that pace to build holistic fitness for races of 1500m-Marathon.

Hmm, in my doofus single (soon to be double) 5k per week, I always increase the pace until I feel like I'm going decently fast for probably the last 10 mins.

And maybe I should stretch my 1-min treadmill intervals out to 2 mins.

Fun thread

Training at 5K Race Pace is a great tool for 800-3000 meter runners to get in quality volume at a pace that is a good balance of being near those shorter race speeds without overstimulating the racing-speed system.

Picture a circle: the circumference is the training pace while the diameter is the race pace. Thus, a 3.14 mile race pace is going to be a great training speed for someone racing 1 mile.

Like the circumference is to the diameter, we run at training paces that surround the race distance.

How many of you when aiming to hit a fast 5k like training with a lot of volume at 15k pace? Same ratio of pi for all practical training purposes.

VO2 max, lactate threshold, lactate steady-state, ventilatory threshold 1 & 2, sub-threshold, supra-threshold, 2mmol of lactate, 4mmol and on and on and on are all labeling something that exists on a continuum. The distance you race and train has a proportion to it that transcends the labels physiologists define us by.

Exactly. Great post.

To work on 5k running economy

"Thus, a 3.14 mile race pace is going to be a great training speed for someone racing 1 mile."

So marathon training should include 82.268 mile training speed? (26.2 X 3.14)

Run that by me again? wrote:

"Thus, a 3.14 mile race pace is going to be a great training speed for someone racing 1 mile."

So marathon training should include 82.268 mile training speed? (26.2 X 3.14)

No, you shouldn't. But you should really get off the internet and pay attention in your sophomore honor's geometry class rn. Thanks.

...agree with Snitch, running economy at a specific pace. That involves getting good mobility and spring that works at that speed. But I also like the explanation with pi, just because it's awesome. Daniels' goes home Devastated!?

stil_kannonier wrote:

Run that by me again? wrote:

"Thus, a 3.14 mile race pace is going to be a great training speed for someone racing 1 mile."

So marathon training should include 82.268 mile training speed? (26.2 X 3.14)

No, you shouldn't. But you should really get off the internet and pay attention in your sophomore honor's geometry class rn. Thanks.

exponential scaling decay need be applied

A 5K is actually less than 3.11, not 3.14. Sadly, your argument thus totally falls apart. :(

Run that by me again? wrote:

"Thus, a 3.14 mile race pace is going to be a great training speed for someone racing 1 mile."

So marathon training should include 82.268 mile training speed? (26.2 X 3.14)

Of course it's going to be a theoretical pace since most marathoners aren't doing ultras, but yes it should include as much time as is reasonable at that pace. This is the pace Kipchoge does a lot of his tempos at.

Daniels overemphasizes certain paces that he thinks are key. As a scientist, he is way too focused on physiological variables that he can measure in a lab.

Forget Daniels. Very few world class runners do Daniels training (I'd say "no world class runners" instead of "very few" except some wise-ass will pop up with some random example). Daniels is great for people who have no idea how to train because it's a fairly plug-and-play roadmap, which is why mediocre high school coaches all over the country love his books.

And, yes, every elite 5km runner is doing some 5km-pace training and not emphasizing 7-minute vo2max pace in its place in order to "better" train for the event.

Whose approaches do you appreciate for advanced class?

forget daniels... wrote:

Daniels overemphasizes certain paces that he thinks are key. As a scientist, he is way too focused on physiological variables that he can measure in a lab.

Forget Daniels. Very few world class runners do Daniels training (I'd say "no world class runners" instead of "very few" except some wise-ass will pop up with some random example). Daniels is great for people who have no idea how to train because it's a fairly plug-and-play roadmap, which is why mediocre high school coaches all over the country love his books.

And, yes, every elite 5km runner is doing some 5km-pace training and not emphasizing 7-minute vo2max pace in its place in order to "better" train for the event.

^This.

I remember reading Sheheen´s training logs. He was using every pace from slow jogs to all out sprinting. Almost no elite runners use just a few paces just because scientists can measure those paces effects in a lab.