Is Mike Norman the fastest man in the world at 100m-400m?

Pretty interesting question IMO, but the skeptic in me says no, probably not. In spite of this season’s early results I would still rank the 3 big American sprinters:

100m - 1. Coleman, 2. Lyles 3. Norman

200m - 1. Lyles 2. Norman 3. Coleman

400m - 1. Norman 2. Lyles 3. Coleman

I think Lyles was a bit overconfident today, assuming he could run down anyone in the stretch, which he nearly did. 19.70 is a great PB for Norman, but Lyles ran faster 4 times last year.

19.70 only “proves” Norman can run 9.9x—perhaps faster, but not necessarily.

As for the other part of the question, we’ll never know but I gotta believe Usain Bolt ca. 2009 world champs (9.58/19.19) could have won the 400m instead if he’d wanted to (won by Merritt in 44.06 WL).

Ruman wrote:

Pretty interesting question IMO, but the skeptic in me says no, probably not. In spite of this season’s early results I would still rank the 3 big American sprinters:

100m - 1. Coleman, 2. Lyles 3. Norman

200m - 1. Lyles 2. Norman 3. Coleman

400m - 1. Norman 2. Lyles 3. Coleman

I think Lyles was a bit overconfident today, assuming he could run down anyone in the stretch, which he nearly did. 19.70 is a great PB for Norman, but Lyles ran faster 4 times last year.

19.70 only “proves” Norman can run 9.9x—perhaps faster, but not necessarily.

As for the other part of the question, we’ll never know but I gotta believe Usain Bolt ca. 2009 world champs (9.58/19.19) could have won the 400m instead if he’d wanted to (won by Merritt in 44.06 WL).

I never felt Usain Bolt was the type of guy to do: (6 or 7) x 800m at 3000m race pace with XC runners with short recovery as done by some 400m specialists. I do not believe Bolt was the type of guy to do: 6 x 600m as done by many 400m specialists with short recovery. I cannot envision Bolt doing 12 x 200m as done by many 400m specialists with short recovery. I do not believe Bolt could have beaten La Shawn Merritt in his prime at distance of 400m.

Not all 400 specialists do that type of training. Some hardly train over 300 meters.

Bolt's 45.28 PB is, as it stands, one of the best among sprinters who have a run a super-elite 100m time.

Tyson Gay ran a 44-high when he was at his peak.

Norman did look quick over that first 100m but for a mid-43 guy also to be the best at 100m not only hasn't happened before, it hasn't been anywhere close.

coach wrote:

Respect for U. Bolt but ... wrote:

I never felt Usain Bolt was the type of guy to do: (6 or 7) x 800m at 3000m race pace with XC runners with short recovery as done by some 400m specialists. I do not believe Bolt was the type of guy to do: 6 x 600m as done by many 400m specialists with short recovery. I cannot envision Bolt doing 12 x 200m as done by many 400m specialists with short recovery. I do not believe Bolt could have beaten La Shawn Merritt in his prime at distance of 400m.

Not all 400 specialists do that type of training. Some hardly train over 300 meters.

Even if a coach would have had Bolt do: 100s, 150s, 200s & 300s, short recovery painful workouts was not how Bolt rolled. I doubt there was a sub-44 400m inside of him.

Respect for U. Bolt but ... wrote:

Even if a coach would have had Bolt do: 100s, 150s, 200s & 300s, short recovery painful workouts was not how Bolt rolled. I doubt there was a sub-44 400m inside of him.

pain tolerance is actually only a very small part of running a good 400m. the kind of workouts you described are not ton very often.

Alien Dragon wrote:

Respect for U. Bolt but ... wrote:

Even if a coach would have had Bolt do: 100s, 150s, 200s & 300s, short recovery painful workouts was not how Bolt rolled. I doubt there was a sub-44 400m inside of him.

pain tolerance is actually only a very small part of running a good 400m. the kind of workouts you described are not ton very often.

Bottom line: Bolt did have the 200m speed to race a good 400m, but he did not have the temperament to train for 400m and did not have the temperament to race sub-44 400m. If Bolt thought he could race sub-44 400m solely on his 100/200 metres training: 1) weight training, 2) sprint coordination drills, 3) working on his start & 4) short sprint sessions with plenty of rest, Bolt would have done it.

abracadabra wrote:

Not sure. How many have taken the same drugs as Norman?

Galen Rupp and Evan Yeager. That's why they are MIA now.

I think Lyles and Norman are dead even across the 3 events. Kenny Bednarek is still a wildcard. Coleman is not as good at the 400. Van neikerk claims to be world class in the 100.

Sprint Master wrote:

I think Lyles and Norman are dead even across the 3 events. Kenny Bednarek is still a wildcard. Coleman is not as good at the 400. Van neikerk claims to be world class in the 100.

Lyles' 400m PB is 47.04, which he ran in the track season he turned nineteen. His season's best 200m was 20.09.

Norman's 100m PB is 10.27, which he ran the track season after he ran 45.19.

Runners run the events they are best at. Lyles is better than Norman at 100m. Norman is better at 400m. They meet in the middle.

And the evidence is going to have to change pretty dramatically to conclude anything else.

Van Niekerk has a respectable sub-10 100m PB, and that makes him one of the better "range" athletes, but he's not super-elite at 100m.

Here’s the 6 fastest 300m performers all time and their 400 PB:

1. Wayde Van Niekerk 30.81 - 43.03

2. Michael Johnson 30.85 - 43.18

3. Usain Bolt 30.97 - 45.28

4. LaShawn Merritt 31.23 - 43.65

5. Isaac Makwala 31.44 - 43.72

6. Danny Everett 31.48 - 43.81

All of Bolt’s 400m contests while in his prime were basically pre-season exhibitions in Kingston, which he’d win—and IIRC he split 43.9 in similar circumstances.

trade off wrote:

Bolt's 45.28 PB is, as it stands, one of the best among sprinters who have a run a super-elite 100m time.

Tyson Gay ran a 44-high when he was at his peak.

Norman did look quick over that first 100m but for a mid-43 guy also to be the best at 100m not only hasn't happened before, it hasn't been anywhere close.

Maybe because there are only half a dozen mid-43 guys.

Ruman wrote:

Pretty interesting question IMO, but the skeptic in me says no, probably not. In spite of this season’s early results I would still rank the 3 big American sprinters:

100m - 1. Coleman, 2. Lyles 3. Norman

200m - 1. Lyles 2. Norman 3. Coleman

400m - 1. Norman 2. Lyles 3. Coleman

I think Lyles was a bit overconfident today, assuming he could run down anyone in the stretch, which he nearly did. 19.70 is a great PB for Norman, but Lyles ran faster 4 times last year.

19.70 only “proves” Norman can run 9.9x—perhaps faster, but not necessarily.

As for the other part of the question, we’ll never know but I gotta believe Usain Bolt ca. 2009 world champs (9.58/19.19) could have won the 400m instead if he’d wanted to (won by Merritt in 44.06 WL).

Did you really just rank Coleman as the third best 400 runner in the country? I am aware he has run the 400 on relays at a relatively high level, but you gotta be joking. Really. I agree Bolt could have been great in the 400 , at least.

JumpsDoctor wrote:

Ruman wrote:

Pretty interesting question IMO, but the skeptic in me says no, probably not. In spite of this season’s early results I would still rank the 3 big American sprinters:

100m - 1. Coleman, 2. Lyles 3. Norman

200m - 1. Lyles 2. Norman 3. Coleman

400m - 1. Norman 2. Lyles 3. Coleman

I think Lyles was a bit overconfident today, assuming he could run down anyone in the stretch, which he nearly did. 19.70 is a great PB for Norman, but Lyles ran faster 4 times last year.

19.70 only “proves” Norman can run 9.9x—perhaps faster, but not necessarily.

As for the other part of the question, we’ll never know but I gotta believe Usain Bolt ca. 2009 world champs (9.58/19.19) could have won the 400m instead if he’d wanted to (won by Merritt in 44.06 WL).

Did you really just rank Coleman as the third best 400 runner in the country?

No, I did not. If you reread my post I think you can reasonably conclude I was ranking “The Big 3” (Coleman, Lyles, Norman) versus each other at the 3 flat sprints.

Ruman wrote:

Pretty interesting question IMO, but the skeptic in me says no, probably not. In spite of this season’s early results I would still rank the 3 big American sprinters:

100m - 1. Coleman, 2. Lyles 3. Norman

200m - 1. Lyles 2. Norman 3. Coleman

400m - 1. Norman 2. Lyles 3. Coleman

I think Lyles was a bit overconfident today, assuming he could run down anyone in the stretch, which he nearly did. 19.70 is a great PB for Norman, but Lyles ran faster 4 times last year.

19.70 only “proves” Norman can run 9.9x—perhaps faster, but not necessarily.

As for the other part of the question, we’ll never know but I gotta believe Usain Bolt ca. 2009 world champs (9.58/19.19) could have won the 400m instead if he’d wanted to (won by Merritt in 44.06 WL).

You're nuts.

Lyles is quickest over 100 and 200, but will always lose races as long as he tries to manage the race.

Norman is the fastest US 400 guy. A great 200 guy and a solid 100 guy.

Coleman is flawed from 60 - 100, but 'solid' in the 200. He'll never run a 400. Its not in his nature.

Oh, and forgot.

Bolt could probably be the fastest 400 guy of all time. But he isn't. He didn't run the fastest of all time. Not even close. He hated the event, and did enough to get by. As he got older he didn't even care about that.

You joggers seem to forget, that greatness in sprints is not about the ability to run one race fast on a chosen day.

Its about being able to run multiple rounds, each one faster, with the last race the fastest.

Sprint rounds are much harder than distance rounds. By the time you get out of the first round there is usually only 1 - 2/10 separating the field so you can't be lazy.

And its not the race that is the issue. Its the warming up and warming down 3 times in an afternoon so you don't blow up in the race.

Norman and Lyles both executed their starts poorly. Lyles did not get out fast enough, and Norman was too aggressive for a 200m and almost got run down at the end even though he is a 400m specialist.

It is inaccurate to say Norman is a world class starter because of that race.

I don’t know if Norman is the fastest at 100m, but I really want to see him race a 100 again!!! He’d smash his old PR and I wouldn’t be surprised to see 9.7X. I do also think Lyles was overconfident today and will win their next 200m meeting.

Who holds the American record in the 200m, yep, the same guy who holds the 400m record, Michael Johnson.

Then there was WR 200m/400m man Tommie Smith.

WVN more 400/200 than 400/100.

Usain Bolt started out 400/200. Took him years before he started running the 100m.

Henry Carr was a superior 200 man over the faster Bob Hayes. Carr a 45.4 400m man.

Kenteris was an x-400 m man, only a 10.18 at 100m.

Those with that 400m ability do have the advantage over just 100/200 cats in a 200m, history is full of examples proving this fact. We saw that today.

Herb McKenley the great Jamaican sprinter was an Olympic 400 gold with a silver in the 100m (some think he won it) he would be the best combo 100/400.