Road Racing and Training Thread, Week Ending 5/12/2019

Well GT, Allen, Sub6 and the others who asked for the race report: Here it is!

I'm not gonna lie. I had some hopes for this half. The sub 1:30 should be attainable.

However, I often forgot I was injured for 3-4 weeks and have less than 5 weeks of consistent training up to this HM with a lot of volume and not that much HM specific training. The fact that I almost did a b2b HM doesn't help also. But I intended to push even harder. My mentality has changed this year. I approach races with a different mindset, and I can say that that anime 'Kaze ga Tsuyoku futeiru' or 'Run with the wind' made me realize a lot of stuff that I was missing in this.

Last year I would run hard until I hit that mental barrier in the middle of the race. Then I would just fade and blame it on something else. Now I don't care. I just shatter those walls and keep pushing hard until the finish line. Suffering is necessary to hit a PB. We just have to deal with it. And it seems that I've learned finally how to do it!

Now for the race report, and bear with me because this is long.

I flew with a group of 12 people on Saturday morning to Genève. The flight was scheduled to 6:15am and I only managed to sleep 2 or 3 hours that night. I figured that I would maybe compensate during the flight or during the afternoon...

We arrived at 9:15am to Genève and went straight to the Marathon Village to pick up our bibs. It was all uneventful. The t-shirt that comes with the bib is one of the highest quality running t-shirts I have!

We were all doing the HM, except for my coach which was doing a Relay Marathon with some friends who are living in Genève, a friend who was doing the 10k on that night and a friend who was doing the full marathon (this guy is aiming for 40 marathons before 40...right now he is 30 and has 27 marathons).

During the afternoon, me, my coach and the girl doing the 10k decided to rest our legs a bit while the others went to sightsee a bit. I slept 30 minutes and then got dressed and went for a 6k jog with my coach while the girl was warming up. We then left her at the starting line and went for the finish line to wait for her with the rest of the group. I could tell that my legs were not fresh at all and the lack of sleep was killing me... also, whenever I travel by plane I usually get really nauseated. It wasn't helping at all...

We got home, had dinner and decided to go to sleep. I prepared everything (including my overnight oats) and went to sleep. Got like 5/6 hours of sleep between midnight and 6am. The morning was uneventful. We got to the starting line 1 hour earlier, left warm clothes on a bag and left the bag on a pickup bus that went straight to the finish line.

During the warm up I felt tired and heavy. The strides didn't help. I just figured this was going to be one of those races where I had to push through pain.

The first 10km were done in 43:30. They had some hills, but not as much as on the HM that I did 2 weeks ago. But I was hurting. The pace was unconfortable from the 3rd or 4th km. I was running with a friend from my running team and we were keeping a 4:18 pace for the first part of the race and then try to speed up on the second half. I didn't want to tell him that the pace was hard for me and my legs were dead so that I didn't distract him... took the first gel at the 7km and some water at the 6 and 10k water stations. I almost ran over a guy who stopped to drink water and didn't signaled it. Turns out my swearing in french is still awesome...

The second part of the HM had a 1k downhill - at the 13th km (did it in 4:09 because I didn't want to burn out here). Then we ran for 5 kms along the lake (which were really beautiful) and at the 19th km we went through the city. The headwind was really strong and I was running alone at this point (my friend sped up at the downhill km).

From the 16th km to the finish line I kept repeating to myself that I could handle the pain. I was really in pain. My right foot thumb actually became numb somewhere along the 17th km. And I cried at the end of the 20th km. I was with a hurting face and a small kid just yelled my name with a french accent and then told me 'Fier de toi, Gonçalo!', which means 'Proud of you, Gonçalo'. From there, I just went through the last 200m and pushed the pace to end the race.

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Taken by my mom, while she was yelling like crazy...

1:30:46. I didn't believe I had this time in me that day. I think I did it because I'm mentally stronger now. My legs wanted to stop, but the head was telling not to. 10'' PR and the feeling that I've been ran over by a bus ahah.

Now three weeks without racing, with an Open Water race on the 26th of May and a 10k on the 1st of June. I'll try to PR then and get another sub 40.

Gordon Tremeshko wrote:

BHViking - looks like a big week for you. Have you been hitting 90miles following the Hadd plan this whole time and I wasn't paying attention, or was this a juiced week? Either way, looks like you're pretty well recovered from Revel.

Hey Gordon. No, I have not been hitting 90 miles this whole time although I'm trying to inch the mileage up. I did have some weeks near this volume but not very many. Last year, I probably eclipsed 100 miles in a week somewhere between 3-5 times so it's not completely unchartered territory for me but it's definitely on the high side. What's funny is, the real reason that the mileage was higher this week was because I kept waking up about 30-45 minutes earlier than usual. So rather than toss and turn in bed I decided to run just a little bit farther. Quite honestly, at heart rates in the 130's, I could probably run 90 miles almost every week if I gave myself the time to do so. I'm considering trying it. This would be very much in line with my goals to improve my aerobic base. I just have to be smart and back off if I start to get sore. However, with a half marathon race less than 3 weeks out, I probably won't try that now!

Yeah, the Revel disaster I'm quite sure was a function of those massive blisters on the bottom of my heels and since I only ran 15.9 miles of that marathon, I was able to recover very, very quickly. I might use the VaporFly's again in the half marathon. I am wearing them in all speed workouts between now and the race. So far, no problem. Not sure what the root cause of the blisters was yet.

Some comments...

GT: Continuing to get in strong work. Don't whittle yourself down too far, though!

TDR: Nice to have a kick in the 5k - a little payoff for the sprint work you've been doing.

jotquill: Good to see you coming back energized and looking forward to the road ahead.

RRR: Great movie, and great running movie. That two mile should be fun.

OR: Definitely understand the disappointment with Boston, but think you're being too hard on yourself on the towpath marathon.

Allen: I hear you on wishing the comeback would come a little quicker. But the main thing is to keep on coming. One thought for you: I see you did two runs this past week, both in the neighborhood of 8 miles and 1:10-1:20 minutes, and it sounds like it was kind of a grueling experience. At the same time, you're doing a lot of biking. What would happen if you were to rely on the biking for volume, endurance, and general fitness, and use the running strictly for technical purposes (getting your stride back, running with good mechanics, etc.)? Put very little emphasis on how much you are running, and focus almost entirely on trying to run as well as possible, at whatever pace you happen to be running?

dirt road: Hope the shins are feeling happier!

Sub 6: Always fun to find a new place to run trails, and that sounds like a good one. In answer to your question about cross-country guys doing the pole vault, it went about as well (or badly) as you might expect. Personally I was completely hopeless, and I think there were a good number of people who did worse in the vault than they did in the high jump. But there were a couple of guys who would do pretty well, considering they were non-vaulters.

jewbacca: Hope the hamstring bounces back quickly.

Hereford: Good solid week. Strides will definitely pay off over time.

Long way: Welcome to the thread!

darkwave: Oof. Hope you're feeling better.

Working Harder: Good to see you're recovering and cleared to run.

RGM: I think that's probably more miles on a stationary bike than I've done in my whole life, and more than I would ever want to do... Funny how different things work for different people!

Coyote: Not surprising that you needed some down time after the racing you did (and the broken toe, if I remember correctly). Good to see you building back up.

Viking: Big mileage coming back from the marathon. Good to hear the calves are cooperating.

Guy: Nice work on the 5 furlong repeats. That would have me feeling pretty good about that 5k if I were you.

stat: Now that's a wet track... Singlet and snorkel weather. Update: Way to kick off the track season!

PutoMiudo: Congratulations on the PR and even more on the mental breakthrough. Way to run tough!

RunnerSam: Nice solid week. Keep the effort going and the times will come.

Coach Jeff: Love the mountain cruise intervals.

HHH: That relay sounds like a blast.

LebanonHills: Good to hear you're getting healthy. I wouldn't rush the workouts, personally, or keep them very light at first.

LancRunner: Surprise XC race sounds like a fun time.

GFMAH - I hear ya.

Puto - You always photograph well and look good running.

Just got home from an afternoon run. I just love running in the later afternoon. I felt good from the get-go, even in the wind, and so I headed for the hills, thinking flyer all the way. Went 11.25 at 6:28.5 overall...7:11, 7:04, 6:44, 6:50, 6:28, 6:29, 6:22, 6:15, 6:07, 6:96, 5:50, 1:26. Felt great.

That tenth split should be “6:06.”

I love the flyers. Nothing negative. It’s a great way to build up the base which you have in spades. But I have my doubts on you achieving the times you want on nothing but flyers.

I think there is a happy medium like Allen has suggested w flyers. Some E days. Hill work. Shorter reps. And TLT type long runs that you can run in a flyer type fashion esp the last part and turn it loose.

And trust me I of all people know the delicate balance of day to day happiness and the joy of reaching a race goal. I’m still figuring it out myself hence why I have dabbled w so many ways of doing it. Like my current summer of RRR program ( which is getting tough AF).

There is a happy medium between happy training and goal racing. We just have to find the formula my man.

Sub 6:00 wrote:

GuyB - Odd that the doubles would affect you like that. For me and I think for most the first easy run would help shake things loose for the harder afternoon session.

Now I am considering that it may work like that better for me now.

Last summer I would sometimes do 2 or 3 miles easy in the morning and speed work in the afternoon. This would really fry me and eventually I realized I was pushing way too hard on the speedwork. So that may have soured me on the whole format, when the problem wasn't easy run plus speed, it was just too much speed for my fitness level. I feel I am doing much less aggressive speed now, which may fit into a light double.

GFMAH: Didn't know a furlong was 220 yards. That is cool and definitely how I will think of it now. 10x2 furlongs next week.

GuyB - I'm finding the reverse can also be true. I think couple miles later in the day after a morning workout can help shake out some pre-cobwebs and make the next day's run feel a little better. Assuming you take it slow enough.

Allen - I would be very happy with your guess. We'll see!

runrincerepeat wrote:

There is a happy medium between happy training and goal racing. We just have to find the formula my man.

This - exactly this.

I really believe that training won't work for someone unless they enjoy it, and so training that is sub-optimal from a physiological standpoint, but that includes things that the runner enjoys, will in the end be more productive than the "perfect" training structure that is just a chore for the athlete.

At the same time, we all tend to gravitate towards that which is easiest for us, at the omission of other things that can also be quite useful that aren't as much fun. And we need to recognize that, and work through it, in order to run to our potential.

Back when I first started running, and even in my more recent competitive periods (but admittedly to a lesser extent), running to me was almost exclusively about competing. If I was told that doing something would give me a better chance at beating someone, I would do it. I mean, I would whine and moan about it while I was doing it, but I would do it. Because nothing beat the feeling of beating someone that I was not previously able to beat.

I am not sure that I am done with racing, but if I transition over to a more healthy and long term approach to running that is focused more on just connecting with friends and getting exercise (as is am honestly considering), I wonder if I will still have the fire to throw in some rep and tempo workouts just to do them or just to be part of a group. (vo2max workouts "just for the fun of it" are not likely to happen.)

I hear you on that Smoove. I do think, however, that there can be a happy medium there. Do I enjoy beating my body and lungs into submission on the track... not necessarily, though there is a sick joy to it sometimes. However, when you have folks around you that are doing the same thing, can share a bit of a laugh during the recoveries, and then hunker down on the reps... I've found that to be really fun.

Anyway, just my opinion FWIW. But I definitely agree that if you're not enjoying what you are doing, the likelihood of you making the best gains from it drops.

Smoove wrote:

I am not sure that I am done with racing, but if I transition over to a more healthy and long term approach to running that is focused more on just connecting with friends and getting exercise (as is am honestly considering), I wonder if I will still have the fire to throw in some rep and tempo workouts just to do them or just to be part of a group. (vo2max workouts "just for the fun of it" are not likely to happen.)

I train with a running team, and I have several teammates who show regularly for the workouts, but do not race. Each one is a very accomplished athlete (several ran D1, I believe), but for reasons personal to each of them, racing is no longer appealing. But they still show for the workouts, including bad weather days. They gain fulfillment from the routine of training. And...it means they can eat more and stay slender....

jot quill: I hear you on the un-structured fun. I'm trying for that too...

RRR: That Saturday fast-finish progression will kick your "kick" into gear.

OR: Are you going to be doing anything "structured" over the next few months, or are you chill (mentally) a bit? On a program? Or just flyer-ing for a while?

Allen: How much effort is going into the cycling? Is it possible your legs were just tired after the previous day's 24 mile ride? "As for the trail being a full-body workout...yeah, that's part of what I'm going for. I've been asking for advice on strengthening, but before I start hitting the gym, I'm focusing on workouts that build muscular strength/power rather than "marathon endurance" for a while.

LongWayFromHome: Nice to have you aboard

Working Harder: Really glad to see ya!

Guy Broman: Yes, stick with the Ks and screw the pedants.

Puto: Sweeeeet on that PR! You'll be under 90 by the end of the year!

HHH: Smashing the phone! Yay! That's worse than storing it in an Uber for a few hours.

LebanonHills: Glad to hear you're turning the corner. Fight the urge to "make it up," consolidate, and stay healthy.

LancRunner: Yeah, wet and heavy here. But that's what I've got so, finally, after years of wishing it wasn't that way, I've come full circle and just go with it... embrace it... lick the sweaty armpit of summer in Taipei

More later today? I'm feeling lazy... woke at 5:30 for my run and rolled over instead. It happens...

OK, I believe I just cured my "meh"ness and prevented further instances of rolling over at 5:30 am. I just signed up for a 25k trail race and I got such a shot of adrenaline just pressing the "Register" button... seriously... I got a buzz just from that. The course has us running up streams, doing some light climbing, and running a lot of vertical sloppiness. Welcome to the jungle...

darkwave wrote:

runrincerepeat wrote:

There is a happy medium between happy training and goal racing. We just have to find the formula my man.

This - exactly this.

I really believe that training won't work for someone unless they enjoy it, and so training that is sub-optimal from a physiological standpoint, but that includes things that the runner enjoys, will in the end be more productive than the "perfect" training structure that is just a chore for the athlete.

At the same time, we all tend to gravitate towards that which is easiest for us, at the omission of other things that can also be quite useful that aren't as much fun. And we need to recognize that, and work through it, in order to run to our potential.

have learned about myself is that I prefer to race well in many races over carious distances all year instead of trying to peak for big goal races so that's the plan this year. Esp 10k and under. Racing a lot just is fun.

Get back up on that pony Coach and shake it off!! Been running more trail this week and it is a lot of fun!

Selected comments!

GT - 8 miles of tempo. Damn. Tough work right there.

JQ - I have no idea how you get up so early. But enjoy these easy weeks, I agree, they're fun in a guilty kind of way.

Sub6 - That Reserve sounds like a great place to train. A new find?

LongWayFromHome - All the best with your goal in Berlin! A sub-15 5k is my ultimate goal, but probably in 2020. A good friend of mine ran 2:24:31 in London off a 15:40 5k PR, so you should be fine! (Mildly tongue in cheek statement)

Working Harder - Great to hear you're potentially back on the path to health. Fantastic news.

Going Faster - Karate Kid clip killed me.

Stat - Love the race report. Anything which involves the track in detail, big fan.

PutoMiudo - Another great report and top effort! Well done. It'll come.

Now I should probably do some work.

Coach Jeff - There will indeed be flyers. Not sure how many or what the frequency will be, as I will be listening to my body. I guess you can call it “unstructured,” but I am not sure that term truly fits. I will be paying attention to daily and weekly mileage totals, and other things. I believe that goals can be accomplished via the method I used with Stone, or via the method I will employ now. Both have their strong points.

I agree with what Allen said some months ago, that I could continue downward toward 2:40 doing what I did back then, with some tweaking and refinement. Also, I strongly agree with darkwave. Good training is a careful balance, and may or may not be what would seem to be the most physiologically grounded (or understood). In the past year, I have noticed a number of different things that my body responds to and I am making note of these things. You really understand runners and running, darkwave. Bless you.

First few weeks are rough but after that it's habit for early waking, helps that our cat knows my schedule now so he's stirring right before my alarm :). The second key is a short powernap right before heading to work!

Behind on comments as usual... but want to share today's workout!

The foray into working on speed is in full force. Had some 1000 and 200 repeats earlier in the week, and today clicked off 12x400m w/ 90s jog recovery averaging 76, ranging from 78-72. Haven't done that kind of work in a while and it feels good, burns but good!

Looking back the last time I did 400m repeats was July 2018, and those were on the track (whereas today I was on the road). Back then it was 8x400m and I averaged 82 with 2:30 jog recovery.

Love seeing that kind of progress and it's an exciting morale boost heading into the second half of 2019! Hope everyone is having a good week~

My property frontage is exactly 660 feet (one furlong or 220 yards or 1/8 mile). There are ancient concrete monuments at each property line ... very handy when I want to tack on a half mile at the end of a run: just two back-and-forths! Perfect for a Luddite like me (my simple Timex Ironman watch is as high-tech as I get).

I almost always ride at full-effort while I'm actually moving, but don't feel any lingering fatigue from one-hour rides. But maybe -- I've never been almost 60 before. I've also been hitting the leg machines at the gym. Could be cumulative factors?

With the exception of extreme training (like super-low mileage, super-high mileage, or super-hard efforts with inadequate recovery), I'm beginning to believe that the details really make little difference in performance. Looking at my own history, I've had some of my best performances after nothing but progression runs/easy runs. AND after dedicated VO2max and LT training. AND after willy-nilly mixes of long runs and repeats. AND after few workouts and lots of racing. CV-pace, LT pace, Threshold pace, I-pace, H-pace, M-pace ... it's fun to speculate and experiment, tweak and evalute, plan and execute, but in the end, really, I gotta wonder how much the results would really vary. For you, though, I think "easy/recovery" days are very important, and were a key missing ingredient from your previous training. With Coach Stone, that changed, and you benefited.

I'm convince if I did my prescribed rehab work, I could cure this. But it's not my nature to dedicate time to such tedium. Hoping a short routine at then gym will eventually work out.

Thanks for this! Good thoughts, and I've put half of your equation into practice already. No biking so far this week because of weather, but during two treadmill sessions and a trail run, I kept the duration short, and really focused on form and turnover.

Well, I'm impressed. Certainly not far off your goals for the day, and bodes well for the rest of the season.

PutoMiudo: I really enjoyed and appreciated your write-up. Congratulations on the PR! Also, that's a great photo your mother took; it's not easy to be cheering and perfectly framing and focusing a camera at the same time.