marathon debut

I was waiting around to have someone more experienced with running a fast marathon (my PR is 2:58) answer your question, but since no one has, I'll give you my 2 cents:

1) I didn't do enough mileage when training for my marathons. I did do enough when I trained for the two ultras I have run, and I should have run a marathon following those ultras, but I didn't. The key mistake for me I think was in having only one long run of over 10 miles per week. I always put in at least 3 long runs of 20+ (up to 23 miles) but I should have had another long run midweek the last two months of my training of anywhere from 13-16 miles I think.

2) I've always found the first 13 miles to be a piece of cake, and I made the grave mistake one year in going through 13.1 in 1:21 as I got caught up in a group that was too fast for me. I died the last half because I hadn't trained enough for that pace and ended up running a 3:21 (1990 California International Marathon).

3) Many people say the race isn't half over until you hit the 20 mile mark. I'd say that's about right.

4) I'm not sure I would do the 800s as part of your training. Keep the tempo runs and even the 1600s, but I'd stop with the 800s. Not sure they will benefit you too much. Concentrate on your strength as you train for a marathon. That's what makes you fast. My mistake that I didn't concentrate on it enough during my marathon training.

5) As far as your pacing goes, I think ideally it would be good to hit the halfway point exactly on target and then try for the next 7 miles to build a cushion and then ride it home. You should hit the halfway point almost chomping at the bit to go faster. If you've gone out too fast, that halfway point can be a bitch.

6) Do set a reasonable goal time. I won't say to "just run this first one for fun" because what is fun about running slowly and just finishing? But at the same time, you are most assuredly going to set a faster PR in a future marathon, so don't get hung up on your time even if you think you are as prepared as you will ever be for a marathon, you are better prepared as least mentally the second and third time you run one. That little bit of unknown in the first one does hold you back a bit.

Good luck.

Anyone smarter than me care to help this fellow out? I'd like to see what you have to say as I take a serious stab at lowering that pathetic PR of mine perhaps in the spring.

Once you get closer to the marathon and are comfortable with your long runs, you might want to pick up the pace on the second half of them and finish at swift pace.

If/when you do your track stuff, realize that isn't the most important workout of the week and don't get caught up in your times you run on the track. It is better to do your mileage and focus on your longer runs than care about your 800 times each week.

Go for an even pace for the marathon. You will have to control yourself the first half to do this because the natural tendency is to go too fast at the start, especially after a taper.

You didn't mention your goal time, but...

Ideally you would already be doing 20 mile long runs. Chicago is 8 weeks away. I would do 4 or 5 long runs of 20 (or a little more) and maybe take a break one week - drop down to 15 or maybe race (10k, 10 mile).

I would keep the long intervals (mile repeats, thousands, etc.) once a week. I wouldn't keep the 20 minute tempo run, I believe it is too short for marathon training. I would instead do a long run (10-14 miles) at a sustained faster pace. Start slower than marathon goal pace, accelerate to that pace after 2-3 miles, and gradually get faster.

Keep in mind you only have 6 weeks of hard training left, use that to fuel the fire during workouts.

If this is your first marathon, I would recommend running your first half a few minutes (2-3) slower than your goal pace.

It has been my experience that most do not run their goal in their first marathon - and many totally die and come no where near their goal. If you go 2-3 minutes slower the first half this should help to prevent that, and if you feel good the second half 2-3 minutes is a reasonable amount of time to make up.

This is simple and works well.

"M" or "M-pace" equals currently achievable Marathon pace in minutes per mile. (example: M-pace for a 2:30 marathoner is 5:43m/m. So for this runner M-pace + 1 minute would be 6:43m/m)).

If you have no marathon PB, simply add 35 secs/mile to your (recent) 10k PB or 50 secs/mile to your (recent) 5km PB, and take that as your current ?M-pace?.

(Sidebar: of course this does not mean you can hop into a marathon next weekend and pop such a time. It does mean, though, that if you are as well prepared for the marathon as you were when you set these shorter distance PBs, you are capable of achieving such a marathon performance).

If you run them, all morning runs (5-6 days week, ie: every morning except Sunday and maybe one other day), start at "stumble pace", with absolutely no effort. If you feel ok, the 45 mins run might finish at M-pace + 1 minute or M-pace + 1:15 but still feel dead easy.

Afternoon/evening runs of approx 8-10 miles can begin at M + 1:15, and if you feel good can finish with 30-40 mins easily building up to M + 40 secs. Not faster.

Once per week, run an evening run of 10 miles (after 2 miles "stumble-easy" warm up) at M + 15-20 secs. Not faster.

Once per week, run an evening session of 12-15 x 1 km at exactly M-pace (not faster, even though you can) with 1 minute easy jog between them. (always include stumble-easy 2 miles to start and finish).

Sunday: one run only of 2 hr to 2:30 at M + 1 min to M + 1:15 (or slower).

An approx 70+mpw week of singles might look like this:

Mon: 6-8m @ M + 1:15/mile (alternate Mon off, especially after 2:30 sun run)

Tue: 2m warm-up: 10m @ M + 15-20secs/mile: 1m cool-down (do not do this session after the 2:30 Sun run: just jog 30 mins instead)

Wed: 6-8m @ M + 1:15/mile (or slower)

Thu: 12-14m @ M + 1:15/mile (finishing with 40 mins at M + 40 secs/mile if feeling good)

Fri: 2m warm-up: 12-15 x 1km at M-pace (not faster) with 1 min jog: 1m cool-down

Sat: 8-10m @ M + 1:15/mile (or slower)

Sun: Week 1: 1hr 45mins, Week 2: 2 hrs, Week 3; 2:30 @ M + 1 min to M + 1:15 (or slower). Week 4: Repeat from week 1)

Hadd

I'm also running my first marathon - this time in November. I notice you don't include any running at sub MP. Are you not supposed to be doing workouts to work

on VO2 Max or lactate threshold?

Also, the long runs seem to be done at a conservative pace throughout - is there no benefit to finishing these a little closer to marathon pace or at marathon pace.

My worry would be that I'm trying to run the last 6 miles of the marathon at a quicker pace than I've ever run the last 5 miles of a shorter 20 mile training run. Are

you truly preparing your body for what is to come by doing this?

I would be interested to heasr your opinions on this - thanks.

Hi Moz,

Number of ways to reply to you on this. See if these bullet points answer your queries.

1. The initial poster only has 7-8 weeks to go, only so much we can change in that time.

2. My experience is that everyone has got the intensity wrong going into their first marathon. Usually by skipping a very important phase in trying to get to the faster (less important) stuff.

3. The point of the long(er) runs is to exhaust your fibres and thus do a number of things: recruit faster fibres at slow (more aerobic) paces and increase their ability to create energy without lactate; provoke yr fibres to store more CHO for next time; encourage them to prefer/and store more fat for energy. Doing this at a faster pace is not any better than slower.

4. Yr marathon will be run at a faster pace than yr usual long runs. This is poss because you carbo-loaded better, are more rested, tapered better, are more excited/motivated. So don't feel you have to recreate the final 6 miles in training. You can't.

5. If he had longer, our initial poster could have been doing semi-regular M-paced distance runs.

6. The whole point of marathon training is to improve yr ability to create energy aerobically. this is all done best (initially) at slower than marathon pace. The cuter/sexier faster stuff can wait its turn.

6a By training as I advise he IS improving his LT (although he is not doing what you think that means).

You need to build the ground floor before the first and second floors of your apartment block. And before the ground floor you need a solid foundation. In my experience, everyone fails to complete this phase adequately. They get away with it over shorter distances but the marathon finds out all their sins.

Suddenly guys (and girls) discover they cannot run a marathon at 10k pace + 30 secs (a reasonable target).

7. This is unlikely to be his best marathon (unless he is some crackerjack 10k elite right now like Geb or Geoff Smith - remember him with Rod Dixon in NY? Don't think he ever ran faster). But if he gets this right he can build on it. If he has been training too fast (even a little), he will run out of glycogen at 20 miles and crash badly in the final 6 miles and sicken himself for future attempts.

Get to the finish in a steady solid time. No major drop off in pace at any point. And then think: recent mile pace for 10k + 30 secs is very good. 10k + 35 secs, not bad but could be better. 10k + 40 secs or more... got something wrong (this time).

Do these help?

Hadd - thanks for your time. That's useful stuff.

Hadd - My initial reaction was somewhat the same as Moz, but now that you remind us that David has a short time left, what you propose does make sense. I would add, if nothing else, some strides or other quick turnover stuff just for plain old running economy, but not at the expense of the distance. By my experience and those of others I know, 70 mpw is generally the minimum load to negative split the marathon at a reasonable pace. And some lengthy mid-week runs working into about marathon pace is an often neglected component--given more time.

To David I would add that come race day it is very easy to run the first mile or more far too quickly. Take it easy -- there is plenty of time to gain back a few seconds and even more time to pay for going out too hard (since you'll likely be on the course for longer than if you had started conservatively). I'd aim for reaching halfway in exactly half your reasonable goal time. Of course you want to run up to your potential, but I wouldn't worry too much about what you do in your first marathon. Use it as an opportunity to explore racing that far and as a learning experience for what to do next time. If you are passing people the several miles, you will be even more eager to go out and try it again.