Marathoning training - only running 3 days a week

Hey darkness.

We so often judge Marathoning programs first and foremopst by "Miles Per Week". But what does that tell us?

Are you absolutely certain that the average sub 2:07 guy is running much more than 90MPW these days?

The guys who ran 2:10 in the 60s and 2:07 in the 80s and 2:05 in the 00s....what has changed? Has the general volume of training continued to increase? Or even stabilize?

The way to 2:03 / 2:02 is BETTER training. It is my opinion that this will not mean more Miles Per Week. I believe that we shall eventually see less Miles Per Week at the very top.

I see a day when the greatest Marathoners never go beyond 1:45 on a training run, and concentration on Marathon Pace will overshadow volume concerns. Every session will involve some running at Marathon pace or faster, and recovery from those sessions by a variety of means, excluding easy running, will be explored.

Jim Peters was brillaint, but unlucky. Lopes also had some very interesting ideas. Check out the training of these people. Is it all about "maximizing mileage", or could it be all about "minimizing stress at the desired pace"?

2:03 runners will find ways to run 2:55 per km very efficiently. They will realize that the way towards this is NOT about "maximizing mileage", (one of the silliest training concepts ever!!!).

I cant run under 3:20 with it today.

Guess who I am.

Lopes is an interesting case study (to say the least).

He didn't start running until he was 17, and then became his country's top 10k guy. For some confounding reason, he finally "broke through" in 1984, at the age of 37, first running an almost world record 10k with countryman Mamade (who did break it ahead of him in the same race), and then a month later winning the Olympic marathon. Within the next year the marathon world's best was his at Rotterdam in 2:07:12.

So the first question one must ask is: speed first and THEN distance? or vice versa?

Lopes would be a good place to start. I believe he was injured quite a bit throughout his career, necessitating frequent periods of low mileage.

I also believe he was a very high mileage guy when in peak training, and at very brisk paces.

skuj wrote:

I see a day when the greatest Marathoners never go beyond 1:45 on a training run, and concentration on Marathon Pace will overshadow volume concerns. Every session will involve some running at Marathon pace or faster, and recovery from those sessions by a variety of means, excluding easy running, will be explored.

From what I read on Shorter's training, he didn't go over 2 hours in his runs. Apparently, the backside of his 20-mile runs were run at 5-minute pace, or about marathon pace for Shorter. Of course, he was running 20 miles/day in doubles as well, so there was probably some lingering fatigue that he always dealt with. Since he also raced on the track, he did faster interval sessions as well.

For those of us who are trying to run at our best efforts while juggling family and work responsibilities, training smarter will have to be a key. This becomes especially true as we get older and find that our bodies break down from too much stress.

Hi guys. Great thread we have here.

Lopes is the man! He DID show worldliness in 1976, finishing 2nd at Oly10k, and first at WXC earlier that year? There were problems over the next 3 years, and then his dramatic comeback beginning in 82ish. He thrashed the world in 84-85. He was the greatest. In his mid-late 30s!!!

I could be wrong, but in moving to the Marathon, I recall that he changed ONE THING only, in his training: His weekly 90min run became 120min. That's it. Everything else remained the same as 10000m training.

Great thread!

Kenny Moore and Benji Durden are two more elites who barely did anything on their recovery days. Moore trained on a 9-day cycle where he would do:

1) long run followed by two days of 20 minute jogs

2) a longer interval session (miles or 1200s) followed by two days of 20 minute jogs

3) shorter intervals (300s or 400s) followed by two days of 20 minute jogs.

I don't think Durden did much more on easy days.

Very interesting!!!???

We have Benji and Greg Meyer and other Marathon Biggies on another thread. But don't all go stampeding to that one. Maybe they'll come over here:)

Thanks newohiomaster

Cheers

Skuj

notsonewbcmaster

My training is similar to what you are talking about. I run every other day 90-100 minutes and 2-2 1/2 hours on weekend runs, I try to hit MP on every run. I'm doing a marathon in the fall. Have you experimented with this method before?

I think a 3 days/week program only works if you've put in years of hard training and could use the fresh legs. It could also work for when you get older and need the recovery. Even then, these scenarios are 'maybes'.

I HAVE done similar stuff, and I did a 1:11 Half from it. I would not have run 1:09 with 6-7 days a week of running! I know my potential. If I ever get around to Marathoning, I swear I'll do this kind of thing in order to reach my potential.

Cheers

Skuj

i beg to differ, i don't think it takes "years of hard running" but it does require an adequate aerobic base to be effective

and agree, it is a big maybe... definitely not for everyone, but there is more than enough ancedotal evidence to show that it works for some. for example, the late great running philosopher, Dr. George Sheehan, got faster when he cut back late in his running life

Perhaps there will be more attention to skill and perception. How do we spend less time on support? How to we learn to harness that feeling of being "on," so it's there on race day and throughout the race? Etc. Miles help, but they often are done blindly. All that said, I haven't a clue. I advanced when I ran more. My wife will kill me if we learn that I could have done all this on half the time but more intelligent training.

OPTIMAL training is key. We so often hear about "maximizing" in training....maximize volume, speed etc. That's wrong!

OPTIMAL training and MAXIMAL training are NOT mutually exclusive.

I'm a middle aged guy who works full time and has to juggle responsibilities at home. I'm slow compared to 95% of the posters here. My Marathon PR is 3:37 and I need 3:30 to get to Boston. I have time to run 6-8 miles every day, but not longer until the weekend.

I'm considering the 3 x week program but I'm "afraid" of not running 6 days a week, even though 3-4 of the 6 days aren't quality runs. Maybe if I only run 3 x weekly, but do the quality runs, it might help.

Bigfoot wrote:

I'm a middle aged guy who works full time and has to juggle responsibilities at home.

I'm considering the 3 x week program but I'm "afraid" of not running 6 days a week, even though 3-4 of the 6 days aren't quality runs. Maybe if I only run 3 x weekly, but do the quality runs, it might help.

My life is similar to yours although my weekends are often messed up because of my kids' activities and the fact that my spouse is a preacher. Like it or not, it looks bad for her when the preacher's husband blows off church to run.

You hit the nail on the head when you said that you were "afraid" of not running 6 days/week. That's me. I'm more into 5Ks, and I'm finding that I'm pretty beat up and fatigued from "normal" training. I have thought about increasing the distance of my running days and taking off in between. It might leave me fresher to run well in races.

For what it is worth, I switched to a similar program about three months back because of recurrent knee and back issues. I am aiming for a Spring marathon and so far, this has worked wonders for this 40 year old's legs. My recovery days are now 60 minutes of high cadence spinning on my mountain bike instead of 5-7 miles of mindless pounding. With less wear and tear on my joints, I am now cruising my LR easily at 6:15 pace instead of 6:40 and I ran a 5K last weekend in 16:07 after struggling to 17:10 three months ago. (60 MPW before vs. 35 + four hours on bike)

I find that cycling in moderate gears with clipless pedals eliminates the need for hill repeats as my quads, hamstrings, and hip flexors have gotten much stronger. I venture that a traditional long run, a set of 800-1000's at 5K pace, and a 10-12 mile MP run are all you need. Replace your junk miles with cycling or eliptical training and you may do just fine.

Good luck getting to Boston!

8*7 = 56 miles (plus (?)more for long run)

Try this weekly pattern starting on Monday: 0,8,4,8,4,12,20 which also totals 56. (Note: the 12 and 20 are SLOW and EASY)

BTW: Why do you want to switch to 56?

Also, just so you know, MY PR is 3:39 but that is because I was not properly trained. I've run a half in under 1:30

Thanks for the input, Czech. I'm doing Columbus in 12.5 weeks so I don't think I'll have enough time for a fair shot with the 3 x program, but I'll give it a go.