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"discrimination is a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of achieving the IAAF’s aim of preserving the integrity of female athletics in the Restricted Events.”
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Armstronglivs wrote:
Semenya defender wrote:
You all have such small and hateful opinions. I don't see how letting Caster Semenya and other women like her compete in their natural state is any different than the naturally tall basketball players in the NBA or WNBA, the naturally petite gymnasts, naturally fast or strong NFL players, etc. This is the way she was born, and this is the way she was created. It is her gift and we are not letting her use it. She isn't taking artificial testosterone and she isn't doping. She has done nothing wrong, and we are punishing her because of the way she was born. Please just take a step back and think about that. Think about what changing her natural hormone balance could mean for her long-term health and well-being.
Her "gift" that you refer to is not strength, height, speed or agility - those genderless traits you refer to - but that she possesses testes. So do I. By your argument, I, too, should be allowed to compete in women's sport. Well, of course - some like me now are. And people like you have no problem with that. The irony is that you think you are standing up for the rights and interests of women.
She doesn't have testes. Caster Semenya is a woman. There's really not much you can argue with about that. -
OLD SMTC SOB wrote:
I'm not interested enough to pay $37.00. The abstract does not really answer my questions, so I'll search around to see if I can find it elsewhere. Is that the only study that was utilized to formulate the rule?
It's the main one, but I think there were a couple of other papers in support.
If you can't find the paper online and can't use a library, you can write to one of the authors (or tweet them) and ask for a copy of it and they are free to send you the complete article. Most authors are happy to do so. I have done this for quite a few published articles but usually just go to the library and use a terminal there. -
Semenya Defender wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Semenya defender wrote:
You all have such small and hateful opinions. I don't see how letting Caster Semenya and other women like her compete in their natural state is any different than the naturally tall basketball players in the NBA or WNBA, the naturally petite gymnasts, naturally fast or strong NFL players, etc. This is the way she was born, and this is the way she was created. It is her gift and we are not letting her use it. She isn't taking artificial testosterone and she isn't doping. She has done nothing wrong, and we are punishing her because of the way she was born. Please just take a step back and think about that. Think about what changing her natural hormone balance could mean for her long-term health and well-being.
Her "gift" that you refer to is not strength, height, speed or agility - those genderless traits you refer to - but that she possesses testes. So do I. By your argument, I, too, should be allowed to compete in women's sport. Well, of course - some like me now are. And people like you have no problem with that. The irony is that you think you are standing up for the rights and interests of women.
She doesn't have testes. Caster Semenya is a woman. There's really not much you can argue with about that.
A woman with 46 XY has testes. This is a universal fact. You can deny it or hate it, but it is fact. -
Not remotely. wrote:
I don't feel remotely sorry for her. She has had undeserved fame and fortune for years, at the direct expense of the runners who finish behind her - even with this ruling I still feel sorry for THEM. Once in a lifetime chances to win World and Olympic titles gone forever. How does this equate to "poor Semanya".
She isn't being banned retrospectively - she's still got the medals, the times and the money. She seemed to take great pleasure rubbing in her "advantages" by continually flexing her biceps after her "victories", while the women she consistently "beat" with ease lay shattered and disillusioned on the track.
She's had far more than her fair share of "success" and it would have been nothing less than an utter travesty and the death knell for women's athletics, if she and her DSD compatriots had been allowed to continue milking all the gold and glory from their events forever.
.
1. Feeling sorry for someone doesn’t imply they’ve been the recipient of injustice. I feel sorry for Semenya because she is the target of all sorts of insensitive jokes and has had personal information about her body publicized in a potentially embarassing way.
2. We can feel sorry for more than one party. Stop presenting false dichotomies. -
Perry Mason wrote:
The correct ruling.
+1
Women's 800m will be exciting again. -
lets be honest wrote:
Semenya Defender wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Semenya defender wrote:
You all have such small and hateful opinions. I don't see how letting Caster Semenya and other women like her compete in their natural state is any different than the naturally tall basketball players in the NBA or WNBA, the naturally petite gymnasts, naturally fast or strong NFL players, etc. This is the way she was born, and this is the way she was created. It is her gift and we are not letting her use it. She isn't taking artificial testosterone and she isn't doping. She has done nothing wrong, and we are punishing her because of the way she was born. Please just take a step back and think about that. Think about what changing her natural hormone balance could mean for her long-term health and well-being.
Her "gift" that you refer to is not strength, height, speed or agility - those genderless traits you refer to - but that she possesses testes. So do I. By your argument, I, too, should be allowed to compete in women's sport. Well, of course - some like me now are. And people like you have no problem with that. The irony is that you think you are standing up for the rights and interests of women.
She doesn't have testes. Caster Semenya is a woman. There's really not much you can argue with about that.
A woman with 46 XY has testes. This is a universal fact. You can deny it or hate it, but it is fact.
If someone is xy, then by the same biological/chromosomal definition, they can't be a woman. I would imagine her testes are intra-abdominal. And yes, there is quite a bit of arguing we can do about that. Her natural testosterone levels are equal or greater than what a woman would have while taking test or doping. Now THAT is a fact. -
OLD SMTC SOB wrote:
I'm not interested enough to pay $37.00. The abstract does not really answer my questions, so I'll search around to see if I can find it elsewhere. Is that the only study that was utilized to formulate the rule?
I thought you were some sort of hot-shot researcher with some sort of academic credentials? If so your department/institution should be providing you with access to this kind of research. Maybe I have you confused with somebody else. -
shifting burdens wrote:
OLD SMTC SOB wrote:
I'm not interested enough to pay $37.00. The abstract does not really answer my questions, so I'll search around to see if I can find it elsewhere. Is that the only study that was utilized to formulate the rule?
I thought you were some sort of hot-shot researcher with some sort of academic credentials? If so your department/institution should be providing you with access to this kind of research. Maybe I have you confused with somebody else.
I am not that person but the true sign of a scientist is knowing sci-hub -
Mr Kleinfelter wrote:
lets be honest wrote:
Semenya Defender wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Semenya defender wrote:
You all have such small and hateful opinions. I don't see how letting Caster Semenya and other women like her compete in their natural state is any different than the naturally tall basketball players in the NBA or WNBA, the naturally petite gymnasts, naturally fast or strong NFL players, etc. This is the way she was born, and this is the way she was created. It is her gift and we are not letting her use it. She isn't taking artificial testosterone and she isn't doping. She has done nothing wrong, and we are punishing her because of the way she was born. Please just take a step back and think about that. Think about what changing her natural hormone balance could mean for her long-term health and well-being.
Her "gift" that you refer to is not strength, height, speed or agility - those genderless traits you refer to - but that she possesses testes. So do I. By your argument, I, too, should be allowed to compete in women's sport. Well, of course - some like me now are. And people like you have no problem with that. The irony is that you think you are standing up for the rights and interests of women.
She doesn't have testes. Caster Semenya is a woman. There's really not much you can argue with about that.
A woman with 46 XY has testes. This is a universal fact. You can deny it or hate it, but it is fact.
If someone is xy, then by the same biological/chromosomal definition, they can't be a woman. I would imagine her testes are intra-abdominal. And yes, there is quite a bit of arguing we can do about that. Her natural testosterone levels are equal or greater than what a woman would have while taking test or doping. Now THAT is a fact.
Let's use terms correctly. There's her gender identity as that of a woman. We should call her "her" and "she".
Then there's the biological sex of female vs. male. She doesn't perfectly fit either category, because, like gender, sex is not perfectly binary. Given her genetic makeup, she fits more on the male end of the spectrum. There are clear advantages she has - testosterone being the obvious one. The presence of that testosterone since puberty gives possibly an even greater advantage than a woman who starts doping at age 28 or so.
An advantage that I haven't seen anyone here mentioning is this - Caster others like her will never have a period. They will never be forced to lose blood once a month. We have different standards for hematocrit and hemoglobin concentrations in men and women because of both testosterone's effects, and because men don't exhibit compulsory bleeding every month. Throw on the discomfort of menstrual cramps, fluid retention, and all the other 'fun' stuff that comes along with periods that intersex athletes will never have to contend with, and you start adding up a lot of unfair advantages. -
"1. Feeling sorry for someone doesn’t imply they’ve been the recipient of injustice. I feel sorry for Semenya because she is the target of all sorts of insensitive jokes and has had personal information about her body publicized in a potentially embarassing way.
2. We can feel sorry for more than one party. Stop presenting false dichotomies."
Agreed. When *this* is the conclusion (below), ideas like "just," "sympathy," "fair," "ethical" are all out of whack in troubling ways:
"discrimination is a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of achieving the IAAF’s aim of preserving the integrity of female athletics in the Restricted Events.” -
weird wrote:
milermb wrote:
It certainly is "excellent news". Now all those white, feminine looking women who find breaking 2:00 hard work will be able to win medals. And the corporate giants who in reality control our sport will be able to market them better and sell more shoes!
Everyone is happy! (Except, of course, the individual who can no longer compete in the sport she loves and happens to be rather good at.)
no he can this is the problem with liberals dont care about the female athletes that are up against a male
Clearly you are not up on intersectional grievance heirarchy. A white, cis-gendered XX woman must submit to the "needs" of a black person of ambiguous sex who self-identifies as female, even if only for one minute and 55 seconds at a time. -
Guess at what point that Caster was forced to take on female-level testosterone levels (and Niyonsaba opted out of competition entirely):
2018 1:54.25 Paris (FRA) 30 JUN 2018
2017 1:55.16 London (GBR) 13 AUG 2017
2016 1:55.28 Rio de Janeiro (BRA) 20 AUG 2016
2015 1:59.59 Beijing (CHN) 26 AUG 2015
2014 2:02.66 Roma (ITA) 05 JUN 2014
2013 1:58.92 Rieti (ITA) 08 SEP 2013
2012 1:57.23 London (GBR) 11 AUG 2012
2011 1:56.35 Daegu (KOR) 04 SEP 2011
2010 1:58.16 Milano (ITA) 09 SEP 2010
2009 1:55.45 Berlin (GER) 19 AUG 2009
2008 2:04.23 Pune (IND) 16 OCT 2008 -
1. I’m happy with the ruling
2. I feel terrible for what Caster has gone through
3. I feel for the girls that have finished behind her and missed out on life changing opportunities
4. None of these things are mutually exclusive -
So, she shaved for nothing? Damn shame....
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And if they can't prove it, does that mean men can now compete against women in distance events with their natural testosterone levels?
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She can still run. It's called the men's 800m
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intenserunner wrote:
And if they can't prove it, does that mean men can now compete against women in distance events with their natural testosterone levels?
No, no it does not.
Stop being stupid. -
I don't understand why they don't just scrap the "female" category in athletics all together and replace it with a "low testosterone" category. This is where it is going anyway, with the allowance now of biological males to compete in women's events when they lower their testosterone. This removes the ambiguity or disagreements associated with classifying humans as male or female.
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She doesn't perfectly fit either category, because, like gender, sex is not perfectly binary.
SJW, I agree with much of what you posted. But gender isn't binary? Give me a break. You are either a woman or a man. Despite what popular snowflake politics would have some say, there are only TWO genders and everybody fits into either one.
