Caster Semenya Loses Appeal

Not An Expert wrote:

Caster Defender wrote:

—As though he ever had any.

Caster Semenya is not a man, and it is hateful and ignorant to say so. Caster Semenya is a woman with different hormone levels. She is a woman who does not conform to your standards of beauty, who looks different from the women you are used to seeing. That does not give you the right to be a bully.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

“Caster Semenya Loses Appeal”

+1. I think there has been some moderation in this thread already. Use the “report button” to help them find and delete this post, too. Bullying like this should always be unacceptable on the boards.

Amen - while I agree this is the right decision to protect women's sports in general - I feel badly for the women with DSD who want to compete and now must medicate. There's no reason to be hateful.

Caster Defender wrote:

Sprintgeezer wrote:

“Caster Semenya Loses Appeal”

—As though he ever had any.

Caster Semenya is a man, and it is neither hateful nor ignorant to say so. Caster Semenya is a man with different external genitalia.

FIFY

Get over yourselves. I am neither a “Caster Defender”, as you describe yourself, nor a “Caster Attacker”. I support honorable and fair competition. I support personal responsibility and awareness. I support the making whole of those who have been damaged.

I do not support narcissism, “getting what you can”, “screwing everybody else for your own gain”, dishonor, or ignorance.

Semenya is an adult, and must be presumed to understand his actions and their effects. While I understand that he has had some personal issues that most have not, that is no excuse for dishonorable conduct as an adult. Semenya’s actions evidence a venal narcissism, yes perhaps born of desperation, but which is nevertheless unacceptable in civilized society.

One should never disregard the fact that innocent women have been harmed by Semenya’s actions, which actions have finally been sanctioned and prohibited in the future, by a slow-moving self-interested bureaucracy. His actions have been deemed unacceptable going forward, and there is no good argument to suggest that they were acceptable in the past...those arguments have now officially been rejected.

I feel for those aggrieved women, for it is they, not Semenya, who have been wronged, and who deserve understanding, compassion, and advocacy. It is they who acted with infinitely more honor and class than Semenya ever did, yet it is Semenya who retains the tangible and intangible rewards of the past.

It is the women against whom Semenya competed who have suffered injustice, and it was Semenya who knowingly perpetrated that injustice.

This decision is in the first instance FOR those women.

shifting burdens wrote:

OLD SMTC SOB wrote:

Makes no sense. It should be in all events. My suspicion is that for some reason, they think that the added testosterone confers no benefit while training and competing at longer distances. Utter BS, I'd love to see the scientific studies that support that decision. But at least they had the sense to limit it at the mile or below.

The burden is on IAAF to prove that added testosterone is a benefit in other events. The IAAF's study and data indicates that is where they can prove a benefit.

So she just moves up in distance............as she apparently already has, testing the waters to see if she's competitive. Which apparently she is. I'd still like to see the studies they referenced which indicated benefit only in the mile and below.

GoldenMiles wrote:

Trolling forecast wrote:

The forecast is for a tsunami of trolling and as many people as possible referring to Caster as 'he' and/or saying 'internal testes' which some folks seem to get some kind of perverse kick out of. Normal decent people - time to take (yet another) break from this wretched place.

Spot on.

Actually, the 'normal people' in this place appear to be the people like you who think it's racist to deny that Kenyan domination of distance running has been due to anything but superior genetics, and who want to kill female athletics by allowing men who identify as women to compete.

SJW nutjobs may be the norm here but thank goodness they don't dominate the IAAF, at least not anymore under Coe's brave leadership.

No doubt this post will get deleted by the mods too.

OLD SMTC SOB wrote:

So she just moves up in distance............as she apparently already has, testing the waters to see if she's competitive. Which apparently she is. I'd still like to see the studies they referenced which indicated benefit only in the mile and below.

Knock yourself out. You may need to use a library with a subscription to read the full article, which I've done in the past. It might also be available in full elsewhere:

LoneStarXC wrote:

Which one from the article is Semenya? Complete or partial androgen insensitivity syndrome, or 5 ard?

Complete androgen insensitivity.

.

This is a very small, and long-overdue, victory for women over injustice they suffer.

Most of you reading this are guys. If you lost your nads in some accident, would you then feel justified competing against women, and accepting the fruits of victory?

It doesn’t matter HOW a guy arrives at the situation where they do not have normal male nads. This decision makes that clear.

Great day for women's athletics. Glad the CAS actually got it right this time around. Damage has already been done by their inability to enforce this ruling earlier. Lastly, dont feel sorry for Semenya. She knew she was cheating the system the whole time and took advantage of the loophole at the expense of other female athletes. She had no regard for any of her fellow competitors or their supposed entitlement to fairplay and their livelihood. Competing and winning under knowingly unfair terms was a selfish act by Semenya. She knew damn well herself, this was never right.

Angelo Mysterioso wrote:

I don't understand why they said that she can compete in other events.

Why did they say she only has to reduce her T levels to compete in the 400m thru Mile?

Can anyone explain?

Because bulky 800 dudes aren’t a threat over longer distances.

Cousin Ernie wrote:

I feel sorry for her.

Why? She had her fun jogging to a bunch of gold medals already

jeffbozos wrote:

Huge story..,

....will ignorant SJW cry out in complaint?

For those of you crapping on SJWs....

Many would call me just that, and here is my response to this ruling:

IT'S ABOUT DAMN TIME!!!

I'm also an exercise physiologist and medical school professor. I know the biology here. She has enjoyed unbelievable advantages that has made a mockery of women's athletics. There are reasons we segregate women from men in most sports. And there is a reason that so many sports even segregate different weight classes. Size, strength, muscular development, long-term development of organ systems and how all of that affects and is affected by training is different.

This is the right move by CAS. Now all the women who do not have these advantages get their justice.

Going further, to illustrate the illogic of arguments made in support of Semenya, I will say this: I also believe that people expressing normal male external genitalia, but who have female levels of T and have developed essentially as a woman, should be permitted to compete against women.

wejo wrote:

agip wrote:

Sad for Caster but good overall for women's running.

Does this mean Caster can run the 1500 this year?

"While the IAAF rule applies to the 400-, 800-, and 1,500-meter events — Semenya’s primary races — the CAS judges say the IAAF should not yet apply the rules to the 1,500."

Yes she can run the 5,000 without lowering testosterone.

I think a lot of people on here are having the same reaction. Sad ruling for Semenya but necessary won for women's sport. And the ruling appears to confirm Semenya is 46 XY.

A bit surprised the IAAF won as their initial study was completely botched and the human emotional angle is to let an athlete like Semenya compete in what she wants to compete in.

The 5k women should walk off the track if Caster competes in that event. So should the women in any event Semenya is involved.

There needs to be a seperate division for people with her condition.

Okay so some quick thoughts.

- Thought the CAS decision was fair and nunaced. Criticized the IAAF where they had been lazy, but made sure a protected category was actually protected.

- the analogy of height in basketball is a false one. Sure, among men it is more useful to be 6ft 9 than it is to have high T, but you're thinking too narrowly. Who would you rather have on your team, Dydek (7ft 2 WNBA player) or 5ft 8 Nate Robinson (NBA) player. Robinson would est Dydek for breakfast despite the height differential, at the end of the day because of his lifelong exposure to testosterone. Testosterone follows law of diminishing returns - between two men not much of a difference but between a woman and someone who is 46 XY like Semenya and you can get a huge jump.

- feel more sorry for Melissa Bishop than Laura Muir. Also Muir probably doesn't care to get bumped up from London. She's more worried about the Genzebe Dibaba's of the world getting caught.

- Sure Semenya isn't losing prize money or medals, but some people really have gone above and beyond to be awful to her. You can believe that she has an unfair advantage and not be horrible to her as a human, and for crying out loud stop saying "he."

- I look forward to the day where track is developed enough that we can have categories for people in Caster's situation, and also trans athletes much like how Parathletics has categories. That way they can compete without having to medicate their levels but women at a fundamental disadvantage don't have to pay the price.

SJW here... wrote:

jeffbozos wrote:

Huge story..,

....will ignorant SJW cry out in complaint?

For those of you crapping on SJWs....

Many would call me just that, and here is my response to this ruling:

IT'S ABOUT DAMN TIME!!!

I'm also an exercise physiologist and medical school professor. I know the biology here. She has enjoyed unbelievable advantages that has made a mockery of women's athletics. There are reasons we segregate women from men in most sports. And there is a reason that so many sports even segregate different weight classes. Size, strength, muscular development, long-term development of organ systems and how all of that affects and is affected by training is different.

This is the right move by CAS. Now all the women who do not have these advantages get their justice.

Sure you are....identity & credentials?

shifting burdens wrote:

OLD SMTC SOB wrote:

So she just moves up in distance............as she apparently already has, testing the waters to see if she's competitive. Which apparently she is. I'd still like to see the studies they referenced which indicated benefit only in the mile and below.

Knock yourself out. You may need to use a library with a subscription to read the full article, which I've done in the past. It might also be available in full elsewhere:

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/17/1309.full

I'm not interested enough to pay $37.00. The abstract does not really answer my questions, so I'll search around to see if I can find it elsewhere. Is that the only study that was utilized to formulate the rule?

Complete...... wrote:

LoneStarXC wrote:

Which one from the article is Semenya? Complete or partial androgen insensitivity syndrome, or 5 ard?

Complete androgen insensitivity.

.

Given that Semenya developed the whole host of typically male secondary sexual characteristics, it can't be complete androgen insensitivity. I thought thats what Dutee Chand had, which made that case especially difficult. Semenya's case is more clear cut, because he can definitely respond to higher levels of testosterone.

[I use the word he in referring to Semenya because firstly, I am not sure if he does identify as a woman, or identifies partly as a woman and as a man, or identifies only as a man, and secondly because the study said he was XY].

Everyone seems to be an "excercise physiologist" these days wrote:

SJW here... wrote:

For those of you crapping on SJWs....

Many would call me just that, and here is my response to this ruling:

IT'S ABOUT DAMN TIME!!!

I'm also an exercise physiologist and medical school professor. I know the biology here. She has enjoyed unbelievable advantages that has made a mockery of women's athletics. There are reasons we segregate women from men in most sports. And there is a reason that so many sports even segregate different weight classes. Size, strength, muscular development, long-term development of organ systems and how all of that affects and is affected by training is different.

This is the right move by CAS. Now all the women who do not have these advantages get their justice.

Sure you are....identity & credentials?

MS in Exercise Physiology, University of Florida, 2002

PhD in Physiology, Wake Forest University, 2006

I became a faculty member at UF in 2010, but I'm no longer there.

You might be able to figure out who I am from that...not sure. But if you think I'm just going to reveal my personal identity on THIS message board, you're insane. I've posted on here since about 2004, although I haven't been active in a long time. I came here after seeing the CAS decision, because my worst instincts just HAD to know what the LRC message board would say. Still the same place it always was.

As a poster above wrote - I have no hatred toward Caster. I want her to be able to live her life how she sees fit.

- the analogy of height in basketball is a false one. Sure, among men it is more useful to be 6ft 9 than it is to have high T, but you're thinking too narrowly. Who would you rather have on your team, Dydek (7ft 2 WNBA player) or 5ft 8 Nate Robinson (NBA) player. Robinson would est Dydek for breakfast despite the height differential, at the end of the day because of his lifelong exposure to testosterone. Testosterone follows law of diminishing returns - between two men not much of a difference but between a woman and someone who is 46 XY like Semenya and you can get a huge jump

Not really. The only thing you are saying is, that you would take the better player. Well there are thousands of women like caster who are much worse in running than laura muir for example. Of course I would take the better runner like laura muir over some badly talented women with high testosterone. Testosterone is only one of the components. Many others are just as important. 99% of the people don't have the talent to competitive at the top level. Compared to the talented 1% they have disadvantages in their body which are much larger or as large as testosterone. this leads to the fact that testosterone is just one more bodily feature like hundred others that is used to exclude a good south African runner