Caster Semenya Loses Appeal

Vancomycin wrote:

Yup all those roided up guys hitting 7 nmol/L of T!! Totally the same!

Every Steroid User wrote:

YA THINK?!

If T levels didn't help with performance, there would be no drug testing and no women's division.

Cousin Ernie wrote:

I feel sorry for her.

not really-feel more sorry for Melissa Bishop in the Olympic "womens" 800m in 2016 losing to 3 guys ...

Slippery slope fallacy.

None of those things are the same as what is going on with Semenya. Not even close.

casual obsever wrote:

Not enough data, unfortunately. CAS even questioned the data for the 1500.

The irony here is that the hermaphrodites can still race the 100 and 200 with all their testo, although those are likely the events where testo is most important.

But nevertheless, a good start! Kudos to IAAF and CAS.

Next steps: lower that testo limit to a normal female limit, and extend the rule to all distances.

100% agree

A slippery slope arguments are usually pretty silly. The argument above is no exception.

Sport is many things, but its raison d'être is the telling of human interest stories. An intersex athlete dominating sport is, indeed, interesting, but one suspects that (a) it is not as interesting to most people, except as a novelty (and it is probably past that point), and (b) it may set up a situation where intersex athletes dominate the female division, which is not a compelling human interest story at all.

However, so far, I don't see many intersex athletes dominating female sport, so until the empirical evidence says otherwise, maybe we should just not interfere. Still, the integrity of sport, and especially female sport, does seem a bit compromised by allowing people with some form of testes to compete against other women. However, everything about professional sport is a bit compromised. That's what happens when there's a lot of money to be made.

You guys realize that most professional female athletes in endurance and strength based sports have more physiological “male characteristics” than an average female? There are more than testosterone by itself. So it makes no sense to punish her. Testosterone is just easiest to track

You responded x 2 to my post under different handles. I know when you do that.

This Semenya IAAF ruling along with 5000m and 10000m decision is most likely an effort to whiten track & field. Are only black women suspected of having too high T-levels? If 5000m & 10000m eventual removal from Olympics and World Championships does not include adding 12K XC Olympic & W.C., there most likely is a systematic effort to whiten track & field.

AB2 wrote:

...

If T levels didn't help with performance, there would be no drug testing and no women's division.

I want to agree with you, but, really, that's just another hunch (although, one I am pretty sure is correct).

Yet, we are distinguishing between hunches (even if correct) and evidence, here.

We have lots of evidence that men are faster than women, and it's pretty well-established that men are correlated with higher testosterone than women, but it's foundational in science that correlation is not the same as causation.

from those at country club ... wrote:

Hardloper wrote:

Slippery slope fallacy.

You responded x 2 to my post under different handles. I know when you do that.

This Semenya IAAF ruling along with 5000m and 10000m decision is most likely an effort to whiten track & field. Are only black women suspected of having too high T-levels? If 5000m & 10000m eventual removal from Olympics and World Championships does not include adding 12K XC Olympic & W.C., there most likely is a systematic effort to whiten track & field.

Oh? Lol. To whiten track and field? So banning Russia, which provided 30% of top track athletes is the way they are whitening track and field? You sound like an idiot baffoon.

Don't worry, your little dark heroes will still get an allowance to dope and win medals. It's by design by the people who are pulling the strings. The same people who are opening the floodgates for all sorts of darkies to come into Europe.

As an observer, the sprintgeezer (hereafter, sg) poster has, I think, some interesting arguments and the apparent ability to think both rationally and subtly, but it is unfortunate that sg can't resist the impulse to keep using male pronouns for Semenya, even after sg claimed that he(?) would refrain from doing so out of respect to the letsrun board. Also, sg recently and unfortunately seems to have devolved into decorating posts with a lot of insults and almost Trump-like claims of intellectual superiority.

sg, really, I think you could contribute quite helpfully, if you could try to refrain from these somewhat sophomoric practices (the insulting gender use, which you did post that you would refrain from, and the ad hominem attacks, and the claims of intellectual superiority)--all of these detract from the strength of your actual intellectual points, and I think your points merit attention on their own rights.

belial wrote:

...

A slippery slope arguments are usually pretty silly. The argument above is no exception.

Sport is many things, but its raison d'être is the telling of human interest stories.....

Do you really think so, that the raison d'être of sport is the telling of human interest stories?

That surprises me.

I would have said that might be a very important driving factor in NBC's coverage, but I wouldn't have picked it for the actual underlying reason we have sports.

I'm no expert, I would have guessed that reasons such as:

* physical development

* competition

* and psychological development of youth

would be more to the mark.

If there were highlander and lowlander competetion divisions and it was discovered that a highlander was dominating in the lowland division, then sure they should be moved to the highland division, however its Good thing we don't divide sport that way.

If we divided competetion by inseam to height ratio and found out some ones ratio was different than the division they were competing then sure they should be moved.

We use age divisions too, if somebody gets the wrong assigned when the start school but we are able to later definitively figure it out there real age, should we let them stay in the age division that they were raised as?

Why not just require anyone with a Y chromosome compete in open events? It does seem strange to suggest artificially suppressing testosterone levels, and in any case this would not negate the advantages of growing up with higher testosterone.

Put a male and a woman athlete on the start line together and you think it's only "a hunch" that the man will win? With her male levels of testosterone the effect is largely the same with Semenya.

TryingToReazone wrote:

AB2 wrote:

...

If T levels didn't help with performance, there would be no drug testing and no women's division.

I want to agree with you, but, really, that's just another hunch (although, one I am pretty sure is correct).

Yet, we are distinguishing between hunches (even if correct) and evidence, here.

We have lots of evidence that men are faster than women, and it's pretty well-established that men are correlated with higher testosterone than women, but it's foundational in science that correlation is not the same as causation.

There is no argument that men are faster and stronger than women. Every sports event continues to prove that. That superiority first becomes evident in adolescence and the huge difference in testosterone is the primary factor. It is causative, not a correlation. The only question is what is the cut-off point in females where it constitutes adavantage and how that point is reached. The IAAF has given a figure that is considerably above normal female levels to allow DSD athletes like Semenya some latitude. Improved research should show the level ought be reduced further and apply to all events.

FinnJ wrote:

You guys realize that most professional female athletes in endurance and strength based sports have more physiological “male characteristics” than an average female? There are more than testosterone by itself. So it makes no sense to punish her. Testosterone is just easiest to track

The issue is not whether female athletes are masculine but whether they have traits that only biological males can have. Female athletes cannot have male levels of testosterone, unless they are DSD as Semenya is.

Vancomycin wrote:

Yup, anyone who makes overarching claims about the "female" vs "male" and how "obvious" this should be is just ignoring reality. It's very tricky and by no means over.

Swyer wrote:

Looks like Semenya is female by definition of what 46 XY is-

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer-syndrome

You made a fatal research mistake here by googling 46,XY and using confirmation bias to further your uneducated agenda.

First of all, 46,XY is a typical male karotype. Swyer syndrome DSD is a one of many different conditions that exist on the 46,XY spectrum and is a different condition to Semenya's because as you read there, Swyer syndrome is with streaked gonads. Streaked gonads are incapable of producing testosterone which means a person with the condition produces normal female levels of testosterone which CS does not.

There is 46,XY which is a typical male karotype

There is 46,XY DSD which is what you clicked on and is only one of a myriad different conditions in that ambiguous 3 letters.

If you want to play doctor, do your research. See ya in 7 years.

I am not sure who you are trying to respond to but I’m aware of the various DSDs which lead to presentation as phenotypic male or females regardless of karyotype. Production of T is not sufficient for male phenotype, I’m sure you know this though, Doc. Ross Tucker has a great break down of ALL the issues we’ve tried to discuss here. I suggest most of you read this fully and come back. It’s clear the IAAF has much more work to do. https://sportsscientists.com/2019/05/on-dsds-the-theory-of-testosterone-performance-the-cas-ruling-on-caster-semenya/

Biologist wrote:

You made a fatal research mistake here by googling 46,XY and using confirmation bias to further your uneducated agenda.

First of all, 46,XY is a typical male karotype. Swyer syndrome DSD is a one of many different conditions that exist on the 46,XY spectrum and is a different condition to Semenya's because as you read there, Swyer syndrome is with streaked gonads. Streaked gonads are incapable of producing testosterone which means a person with the condition produces normal female levels of testosterone which CS does not.

There is 46,XY which is a typical male karotype

There is 46,XY DSD which is what you clicked on and is only one of a myriad different conditions in that ambiguous 3 letters.

If you want to play doctor, do your research. See ya in 7 years.