Any masters runners here use Tinman's methods?

Bump. Hope this thread doesn't die

Keep it alive!

For those looking for XC training from "Former Sub 14:00", this thread and page specifically may interest you.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8230443&page=5

Basically seems like he progresses from marathon pace steady state to threshold work to specific race pace stuff. All with hills and some short intervals sprinkled in. Seems like a logical plan.

To Former Sub 14:00: would you say your opinions have changed in the last couple years since that thread? Anything you have learned? (just trying to start discussion here)

Thank you so much for posting that. Incredibly helpful.

peekay wrote:

For those looking for XC training from "Former Sub 14:00", this thread and page specifically may interest you.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8230443&page=5

Basically seems like he progresses from marathon pace steady state to threshold work to specific race pace stuff. All with hills and some short intervals sprinkled in. Seems like a logical plan.

To Former Sub 14:00: would you say your opinions have changed in the last couple years since that thread? Anything you have learned? (just trying to start discussion here)

Yes, that is in a nutshell what we do for the XC training phase. I think "steady states" or MP running is really important for men's teams trying to do well at the 10k distance. Tempos and threshold doesn't always cut it. You almost want to be training like a half-marathon runner. If you look at the NAU training threads you will see Mike Smith do "sub-threshold" runs almost every other week. Those are steady state runs. The same is done by Rob at Portland with his 8-9 milers. The same is done by Ed Eyestone whenever their training has a "power run" in it. Iowa St., OK State, Iona, and Oregon also do all of these. You can find info of Cheserek citing frequent 8 milers at around 5:10-5:15 pace over the summer. It is a common theme amongst top men's teams. The MP running helps accelerate a HS boy's aerobic ability very quickly. For the women, the training is a lot more like the track training. The men have more of a steady state emphasis over threshold/tempo work, while in track the steady state eventually gets dropped. Recently I have started to do steady states on a bi-weekly basis throughout the whole year and the other week is a threshold/tempo workout. So as of the recent season we didn't hammer steady states every single week like we did in the past.

To the guy asking about easy day paces....we don't really pay attention. Most of my team doesn't run with a watch. We know where the mileage turnaround points are and they just run off of feel. The ones who do wear GPS watches have varying paces. Women's team is anywhere between 7:30-8:30 pace. Not uncommon for the recovery run to be 8:30. Men can go as fast as 6:30 or as slow as 7:30. They like to chill out on their recovery runs a lot. They really just run how ever they feel. On a long run its not uncommon to start at 7:30 and be going maybe close to 6:00 at the end if they feel good. I think looking at training charts and how fast your should run your easy days is the number one mistake most make. To me, taking it easy and listening to your body shows confidence in your training. A lot of runners are insecure and take comfort in hammering easy days when they should't be.

To all of you masters runners out there...which I am slowly learning myself....PRIORITIZE RECOVERY. Stress your body then de-stress it. Let adaptation occur. Make it to the next workout healthy. If you got to cross-train (like Ghost said) then you got to do it. My top female runner cannot run more than 45 mpw. Sometimes we just don't run. She just cross-trains instead because the risk isn't worth it.

Former Sub-14,

How would your training be different if you were coaching professionals instead of collegiate athletes?

Another version of this question is: what aspects of training do you sacrifice by coaching a college team?

I’m assuming you have conference this weekend. Good luck to your team!

I really have enjoyed reading your thoughts on training. Thanks for taking the time to help fellow runners/coaches. I noticed in a previous post by you, back from 2017, you indicated that you liked Magness, but in recent posts, you have stated that you don't like him. I'm curious, what changed your mind.

Former sub 14:00 wrote:

I really have enjoyed reading your thoughts on training. Thanks for taking the time to help fellow runners/coaches. I noticed in a previous post by you, back from 2017, you indicated that you liked Magness, but in recent posts, you have stated that you don't like him. I'm curious, what changed your mind.

That post was not written by "former sub 14:00". I meant to direct it to him. Sorry about the confusion.

I think the easy answer is that professionals have a lot more time. A collegiate's schedule has to be more of a regimen with how a lot of other things in their life is more predictable. You know when conference is, you know when regionals is, you when nationals is, you know when mid-terms are, you know when finals are, etc. I am limited in the ammount of time I can spend with them as well per NCAA rules. As a pro, you can your life around your training schedule where as a collegiate it is the other way around. If you had a big workout as a pro, you don't have to workout again until you are completely recovered. However, as a collegiate there are meets and seasons that go by whether you are ready or not. So you have to be prepared to make the most of a schedule that is given to you in how you design stress/recovery around other aspects of their life.

In short:

pros = more intense, more time to train, more time to recover, freedom of schedule

collegiate = tighter schedule, "life stuff", you have to sometimes squeeze in workouts unfortunately

I don't like Magness too much anymore because of how he carries himself. His training is fine and he along with Canova got me really thinking about hill sprints/developing max speed in distance runners.....but I just haven't liked interactions with him. I need to get to know him better I suppose. However, if I would have to criticize the training aspect, I think his event specific workouts are not specific enough. He seems to gravitate towards pace alterations a lot. That kind of training is not as effective IMO. Having reps with a more consistent length/pace helps the body deal with the steady accumulation of lactate that you would experience in your event. If you are worried about not being prepared for surges then get fitter. The guy who fartleks all his workouts doesn't necessarily mean he is the most prepared for it in a race.

He also eventually lets go of a lot of the stamina work in his 5k plan which I don't agree with. He keeps it around once in awhile known as an "aerobic refresh," but I believe that it has to be done more frequently than what he suggests.

This makes perfect sense. Again, you’ve given many very informative posts. Thanks for taking the time to lend your thoughts.

Thank you, Sub-14.

Whether it is Tinman’s athletes, or Melbourne Track Club, The Ingebrigtsens, or Mike Smith at NAU, the number of times that I read/hear about athletes running PRs or near PRs off of good aerobic work, some short speed and minimal race pace or VO2 work makes me think that this pace isn’t needed as much as many think it should be. A little bit goes a long way.

I remember watching Matt Tegenkamp run 7:40 for 3k indoors in 2007 off of just tempo and threshold work and strides.

Mottram’s 8:03 two mile at Pre a few months later was off of very little track work.

If you look at the NAU training thread you’ll see how little VO2 max work they do. Maybe one workout devoted to it, and one or two other threshold works with a faster rep at the beginning or the end.

Actually running maxVO2 workouts frequently is a very good way to teach the body to get more energy efficient at

5 k race pace. But you should not run long reps at this pace that will lead to fatigue. It`s the total time being at this pace

in an interval that is important for the heart to grow stronger, not a need for the reps to be long . In my chat with Ph Tjelta

he agree with me in this matter. Most of my runners run a maxVO2 workout every week year around ( mostly 20 x 400m ) and this way they just keep on improving. This pace makes the other slower stuff needed much easier to do.

Run train wrote:

My training partners have been using DANCAN ? or something like that it brought them down to 20x400 s @ 68 with rest down to 120 bpm from 74 s. He had some very good results.

+1

A very effective way of training.I have tried it for a year now and just getting better and better.

The next king of the Kenya highlands wrote:

Actually running maxVO2 workouts frequently is a very good way to teach the body to get more energy efficient at

5 k race pace. But you should not run long reps at this pace that will lead to fatigue. It`s the total time being at this pace

in an interval that is important for the heart to grow stronger, not a need for the reps to be long . In my chat with Ph Tjelta

he agree with me in this matter. Most of my runners run a maxVO2 workout every week year around ( mostly 20 x 400m ) and this way they just keep on improving. This pace makes the other slower stuff needed much easier to do.

You say 20 x 400 at maxVO2 pace. For a 17:00 -17:30 5k runner, would this be at 3k pace or 5k pace? 20 x400 at 3k pace every week, seems awful hard, especially if racing weekly. (This is for a high school or college athlete)

No! Never 3 k pace when running 20 x 400m ! Always 5 k pace ..... ! ))

- Magic season just rolls on -

The next king of the Kenya highlands wrote:

slow people wrote:

You say 20 x 400 at maxVO2 pace. For a 17:00 -17:30 5k runner, would this be at 3k pace or 5k pace? 20 x400 at 3k pace every week, seems awful hard, especially if racing weekly. (This is for a high school or college athlete)

No! Never 3 k pace when running 20 x 400m ! Always 5 k pace ..... ! ))

- Magic season just rolls on -

I thought max VO2 was 3k pace for an average runner, whereas the elite's maxVO2 pace is similar to 5k pace, since they can run a 5k much faster than the average runner. Also, how long would you recommend for the rest?

slow people wrote:

The next king of the Kenya highlands wrote:

No! Never 3 k pace when running 20 x 400m ! Always 5 k pace ..... ! ))

- Magic season just rolls on -

I thought max VO2 was 3k pace for an average runner, whereas the elite's maxVO2 pace is similar to 5k pace, since they can run a 5k much faster than the average runner. Also, how long would you recommend for the rest?

Okey! ))

Then you know now that even the average runner needs 5k race pace when doing maxVO2 workouts as 20 x 400. The best way of resting is the perfect individual rest walking easy down to 120 heartbeats per min ( or 60% of max heartrate.). Always the very best individual rest needed after every rep.

slow people wrote:

The next king of the Kenya highlands wrote:

No! Never 3 k pace when running 20 x 400m ! Always 5 k pace ..... ! ))

- Magic season just rolls on -

I thought max VO2 was 3k pace for an average runner, whereas the elite's maxVO2 pace is similar to 5k pace, since they can run a 5k much faster than the average runner. Also, how long would you recommend for the rest?

400m intervals at 5k pace is not VO2 running. They are glorified strides

I have been under the Tinman system for about 5 months.

BG:

- 30 y/o

- ran XC in high school (17:11 5k best ) and 1 year in DIII (ran like 29:xx for 8k was very bad lol)

- never ran track

- PR's (set last year after training on my own and doing a Nick Willis Mile boot camp): 17:08 - 5k, 4:50 - mile, 2:11.7 - 800m

progress since Tinman:

16:12 - 5k, 4:22- 1500, 4:34 (slight downhill) road mile, 2:05.92 - 800m

Steel feel like I have a lot more progress to make but in all of my races I have been surprised at the strength and speed I have. When I ran the 16:12 I went out at 4:55 pace for the first 1.33 miles and honestly thought I was running 5:10 pace.