CV and 800m

60 minutes isn't a long run. Though 60 minutes per day is the minimum amount of running per day a high school mid-long distance runner should do.

That first workout is awesome, very similar to what you'll see at D1 powerhouses in the 800/1500. 60 minutes is a little short for the long run, but considering plenty of collegiate 1500 runners do 70-75 minutes for their long run in-season, it's probably not that bad. It's definitely still beneficial to keep it in the training schedule though.

What grade are you?

What was your average weekly mileage the 4 weeks prior to the start of there season?

What was your long run average (time / distance) the 4 weeks prior to the start of the season?

What is your weekly mileage (thus far) during the season?

What's your open 400/800 PR's ?

It's not uncommon to be competitive in the 4 - 8 - 16... and some coaches feel that an athlete should be fully trained for the event directly below, and directly above their primary. So its not a surprise to read that you're achieving some success in the 1600 even though you self describe as a 400/800 runner. Seb Coe split 44.x in the 4x400 relay, and we all know what he did in the 800 and mile.

ghost_coach wrote:

What grade are you?

What was your average weekly mileage the 4 weeks prior to the start of there season?

What was your long run average (time / distance) the 4 weeks prior to the start of the season?

What is your weekly mileage (thus far) during the season?

What's your open 400/800 PR's ?

It's not uncommon to be competitive in the 4 - 8 - 16... and some coaches feel that an athlete should be fully trained for the event directly below, and directly above their primary. So its not a surprise to read that you're achieving some success in the 1600 even though you self describe as a 400/800 runner. Seb Coe split 44.x in the 4x400 relay, and we all know what he did in the 800 and mile.

Sophmore

400: 53.2

800m: 2:02.34

1600m: 4:45 (don’t run it much but I think I can go sub 4:40)

It’s not running it that’s the problem I just want to know if those CV workouts and longer runs will really benefit me if I run the 400/800 more

gahagand wrote:

That first workout is awesome, very similar to what you'll see at D1 powerhouses in the 800/1500. 60 minutes is a little short for the long run, but considering plenty of collegiate 1500 runners do 70-75 minutes for their long run in-season, it's probably not that bad. It's definitely still beneficial to keep it in the training schedule though.

Do you think having these slower workouts will affect my 400m speed?

No, you can actually do speed work every day in small doses and only have one true Speed day to maintain your speed while working on your other qualities

You can start each workout with a 1x(30m, 60m, 90m) Walk In sprint, walk back recovery or you can train acceleration one day, maxV another day, or set up some wickets or mini hurdles in the grass to develop proper sprint mechanics. Variety is the best thing for an 800 guy imo

To answer your questions, a 60-minute run sounds like a good part of an 800-meter runner's in-season training. The 6x1000 + 4x200, on the other hand, feels like an awful lot of CV volume for a guy like you, especially in mid April.

I could see that as a staple of base phase, but it's an awful lot of meters for one day on the track for a long sprinter. And I've never heard of a 400/800 guy doing a total of 800 meters/week faster than 3200 pace entering peak racing season.

That should change.

My suggestion is to talk it out with your coach, and have her/him explain the plan moving forward. The why and how of it all... Many times a coach will have a long range plan in mind, and simply forget to share the vision (especially with a large HS team) or assume because nobody is asking for clarification that everyone gets it. Share your concerns with your coach, and my guess is, he/she will be more than happy to clarify.

Your 60 minute run is about right... assuming you are running it easy (no faster than 7:00 - 7:15 pace after a couple miles to warm up), and focusing on good mechanics. This workout will not be your performance limiter.

The other "CV" workouts do seem a bit 'heavy' for a 2:02 guy... BUT it's not really fair to say that with confidence. We have no idea how you are handling and adapting to the workout volume or intensity, and as I said previously, your coach might be working on a very specific program that you're currently unaware of.

Hope that helps!

webby wrote:

To answer your questions, a 60-minute run sounds like a good part of an 800-meter runner's in-season training. The 6x1000 + 4x200, on the other hand, feels like an awful lot of CV volume for a guy like you, especially in mid April.

I could see that as a staple of base phase, but it's an awful lot of meters for one day on the track for a long sprinter. And I've never heard of a 400/800 guy doing a total of 800 meters/week faster than 3200 pace entering peak racing season.

That should change.

Does 5x1k make it any better?

What do you race at a typical meet? And are you racing every week? Twice some weeks (league meets and invitational)? It seems like you’re a little light on speedwork, but if you’re racing the open 400, 800, and 4 x 400m every week, plus an occasional weekend invite when you’re doing just the 400 or 800 and maybe a leg of the 4 x 400m, that would get you where you need to know on that front.

Plenty of coaches overdo it on the speed work with talented young athletes; all other things being equal, it’s better to be in your boat. Trust your coach, and if you have any questions, ask him!

Not An Expert wrote:

What do you race at a typical meet? And are you racing every week? Twice some weeks (league meets and invitational)? It seems like you’re a little light on speedwork, but if you’re racing the open 400, 800, and 4 x 400m every week, plus an occasional weekend invite when you’re doing just the 400 or 800 and maybe a leg of the 4 x 400m, that would get you where you need to know on that front.

Plenty of coaches overdo it on the speed work with talented young athletes; all other things being equal, it’s better to be in your boat. Trust your coach, and if you have any questions, ask him!

My coach is an absolute bonehead. I mostly train myself because I can't rely on my school to have consistent practices and meets but my coach trusts me to train myself (he's not very knowledgable about running)

I don't have that many meets so I don't run my events a lot in general but here's my training schedule:

Sunday: Off

Monday: Speed work (ex 12x200m. 8x300m. 100-200-400-200-100, etc)

Tuesday: Easy 3-4 miles

Wednesday: Longer Speed Reps (ex: 10x400m. 600-3x400,3x200,3x150,3x200,2x400)

Thursday: Easy 3-4 miles

Friday: CV reps (6x1k, 4x200m, 200m jog for CV's, 200m walk for 200s)

Saturday: 1 hour long run (7-8 miles)

What workouts do you think would be suitable as I begin to cut down more reps and add more speed

Got it so keep the long run, cut the CV's down a rep or two and add in the 200s. (I'm pretty much self coached so I come onto here for advice)

confusedman wrote:

Does 5x1k make it any better?

The most recent responders have me checking myself with their good points. I don't know enough about you, your racing schedule, or your coach's Grand plan to be so cocksure.

That said, 5000 meters of work as opposed to 6800 probably wouldn't have seemed as odd to me -- especially if you're doing a lot of racing each week. Not your classic 400/800 workout, but even 6x1000 at CV is not harmful. Just maybe not optimal.

I interpreted your first post to mean that your only hard days were the CV work and the long run. Now that I see your whole schedule, I don't really have any concerns. But yes, going down to 4 or 5 x 1000 makes sense as you ramp up your intensity on the speed days.

webby wrote:

I interpreted your first post to mean that your only hard days were the CV work and the long run. Now that I see your whole schedule, I don't really have any concerns. But yes, going down to 4 or 5 x 1000 makes sense as you ramp up your intensity on the speed days.

Thanks!

FWIW I ran 1:54 for 800 my senior year of high school, and I consistently did things like 8x800@CV (we called them cruise intervals but it's the same thing) followed by some speed work (250, 200, 150, 100@800 was a common one). In indoor I once did 8x1000@CV with 60 seconds rest and ran 3:13 for every single rep except one, which was 3:12, and it was a very relaxed effort. Heck, I remember doing cruise intervals the week before outdoor nationals (where I split 1:54 in our 4x8 and we ran 7:43). It's not nearly as hard on the legs as, say, a VO2max workout, but still builds strength. I think it was a really important part of my training and I would strongly encourage you to keep doing what your coach says, he really seems to know what he's doing.

gahagand wrote:

FWIW I ran 1:54 for 800 my senior year of high school, and I consistently did things like 8x800@CV (we called them cruise intervals but it's the same thing) followed by some speed work (250, 200, 150, 100@800 was a common one). In indoor I once did 8x1000@CV with 60 seconds rest and ran 3:13 for every single rep except one, which was 3:12, and it was a very relaxed effort. Heck, I remember doing cruise intervals the week before outdoor nationals (where I split 1:54 in our 4x8 and we ran 7:43). It's not nearly as hard on the legs as, say, a VO2max workout, but still builds strength. I think it was a really important part of my training and I would strongly encourage you to keep doing what your coach says, he really seems to know what he's doing.

Those workouts sound very hard and not 800m specific. Not something that is part of typical Tinman training to my knowledge. Sounds like you were in excellent 10k shape...

Lol that's exactly what Tinman specifies for pacing, rest, literally everything...not that it belongs to him, the idea of doing 800-1200 meter repeats at a little faster than lactate threshold is something that coaches have been doing for decades. Daniels called them cruise intervals and some people just say 10k pace but it's not a new idea. That specific workout was quite easy for me, I did not feel like I was pushing at all until the last rep. As I said, we ran 7:43 in the 4x8 and now running in college I have continued to do similar workouts as an 800m runner. As far as 10k shape, I'm a distance runner, and 800m is a distance event. 66% of the energy is derived from the aerobic side of the fence. Like it or not, training for the 800 entails training as a distance runner and (as any Kenyan will tell you) the training for an 800 should be closer to 10k training than it should be to sprints training.

gahagand wrote:

FWIW I ran 1:54 for 800 my senior year of high school, and I consistently did things like 8x800@CV (we called them cruise intervals but it's the same thing) followed by some speed work (250, 200, 150, 100@800 was a common one). In indoor I once did 8x1000@CV with 60 seconds rest and ran 3:13 for every single rep except one, which was 3:12, and it was a very relaxed effort. Heck, I remember doing cruise intervals the week before outdoor nationals (where I split 1:54 in our 4x8 and we ran 7:43). It's not nearly as hard on the legs as, say, a VO2max workout, but still builds strength. I think it was a really important part of my training and I would strongly encourage you to keep doing what your coach says, he really seems to know what he's doing.

You ran 1:54 in a open 800? Or are you calling that time from a relay?