Comeback Advice

Yeah man, you need to temporarily forget all that "real runner" stuff you know about training because it's not relevant now.

Here's what I would do FWIW:

-very slow and very easy run alternating days of very short runs with semi longer efforts. Don't even think about pace, go very slow. It's OK to have a 3M run. It's Ok to shuffle along slowly.. you will get faster and go longer.

-Still do your "long day" but that long weekend run that used to be 12M+ might be 6M now.

-hit the gym 2-3x week, you're older and you need to get stronger and you need help dropping that weight. You need the extra calorie burn from resistance training.

-dial in that diet. you don't have to be crazy or go full keto/paleo blah blah blah... but you need to cut out the junk & alcohol.

I would just focus on trying to be consistent for about 8-12 weeks before I even thought about doing anything that would resemble a "workout".

-Your aerobic system will come along with time, your legs will get strong but you really need to give all the ligaments and such time to adjust to your comeback.

Eventually you can start doing some hill reps for some quality work, then fartlek>tempos.

Don't get too carried away you've been away for a long time, do it will take a long time to come back.

I agree with the above. Don't even worry about pace for 8-12 weeks. Run slow easy runs, try to run 5-6 times a week. Build consistency. You won't dread running everyday if the effort is easy. The key here is to get back into it, and get your body used to running again. Seriously, it may sound crazy, but don't run a single mile faster than 8:00. You can do strides a few times a week though, but just to get your legs moving faster, not to build any type of endurance.

Then, pick a race and do a 12-16 week ramp up training program.

Good on ya! I'm on a bit of a comeback myself right now (and not for the first time). Your goal is really ambitious! I've found that I get a lot of bang for my buck by doing as much volume as I can handle without getting injured, and a tempo run once or twice a week. I find I can increase my tempo pace around 5 secs/mile roughly every 2 weeks (about 10 secs/month) when I get back to business after a long layoff. This is about twice the rate of improvement of what Daniels suggests for when adaptation is going well (I don't think he was referring to people getting back off the couch). Ideally, I run a tempo every 4th day or so (e.g., Mon/Fri; Tues/Sat; Wed/Sun). I'll run at tempo pace for 20 mins, bump up to 25 and when I can do 30 at about the same perceived exertion, I increase roughly 5 secs/mile and drop back to 20 and start over again. I run them somewhat faster than recommended (more akin to critical velocity). While in a build on return, all my other miles are easy to just manage the volume, get the tempo runs in, avoid injury, and lose weight. I'll throw in the occasional stride but don't like to tax things too hard while my bones are adapting to the volume. Losing weight is critical. I figure if I can run a 3 hour marathon at 180 pounds, that's about a pound a minute. If I can lose 20 lbs of fat while retaining muscle mass and associated strength - that's a huge return for improving speed and endurance. Personally, I wouldn't be able to achieve your goal if your tempo pace is roughly 8:30 and you want sub-7 for a half in 5 months. My tempo pace beginning of this calendar was 6:58, I got off the couch and started running 50 miles a week (am at 75-80 right now), have lost over 10-15 lbs, and am running tempos at 6:15 this week (week 16) - it's really probably dumb luck, and lots of stretching and rolling, that I'm not injured. That's not even a 45 sec/mile improvement in 3.5 months and if I am interpreting things correctly, you're looking at going from maybe 8:30ish to 6:50ish tempo pace (100 secs/mile) to get under 7:00 for a half in 5 months. I hope you can and wish you the best but you may want to consider multiple goals (e.g., ultimate of sub-7 but other ones like consistent improvement, racing smart, avoiding injury, losing weight, etc.) Good luck!

Don't get injured. That is far more important than anything else.

You may know a lot about training, but you're a noob at having an overweight, 30-year old body. You might be lucky and find you can still get back into shape quickly, or you might find that 30 is when comeback attempts end after 3 weeks due to injury. So keep it slow and gradual, stay consistent, and don't get injured. Don't even think about workouts until you're running 30+ mpw and 5-6 days per week without any fatigue or soreness. Put off your race by 6 or 12 months if you have to.

Don't get injured.

OP, I am in a similar position to you. This is my 2nd or 3rd shot at a "comeback" over the last 8 - 9 years (I'm 32). Long periods with inactivity, poor diet, too much drinking etc. Unfortunately, there isn't much literature on people like us who have a running background and are trying to get it back. Most training plans are either couch to 5k type OR advanced stuff.

First, you have to lose weight. Don't expect to get down to your high school weight, but you have to lose weight ASAP. Change your diet, cut out booze, and increase your running (and cross training). Your legs and feet will thank you.

Second, don't worry about pace like others have said. Run for time, aim for 40 minutes a day or whatever. Even if you are jogging 12+ minute miles, it doesn't matter. If you feel good, pick it up a bit. If you feel bad, slow down. Just keep moving.

Third, start increasing a long run every week by 5 - 10 minutes each week. Even if your long run is 40 minutes now, start there and work up to 60, 75, 90, etc. You will feel better about yourself and your running economy will improve.

Fourth, after a few weeks (and a few pounds lost) add some strides a few times a week after your runs. Don't do these as fast as you did in high school. Don't feel like you need to do 100 yards or whatever, just start running a bit quicker even if just for 30 - 40 yards.

Lastly, do everything in your power not to get hurt. This is the hardest thing, especially if you have lingering injuries from your younger years. If something hurts and continues to hurt after 5 - 10 minutes. Stop. Take a day off. Take two or three off. Once the weight comes off and your base starts to develop, knock yourself out with tempos, intervals, etc. Just remember you are trying to run 7:00 pace for a half marathon and not trying to set PRs at 800/1600/3200.

Good luck.

Good grief guys, gotta admit I'm a bit overwhelmed by the response. Certainly appreciate it. I've read everything but I'm in the close of my work day so I can't really dive in yet. In brief, I really appreciate the advice and what I want to really hone in on when I have time later is the fact that there isn't much out there regarding that gray area between first time runner and expert runner. I think there's a huge market for those types. I'm serious about this and if this actually gets rolling, I will chronicle the adventure. Just don't want to get ahead of myself. Thanks again.

I hope you keep this thread up as it seems there a lot of us in similar situations as yours.

A few other things...

Keep as much running as possible on soft surfaces. I know that even a block or two on concrete destroys me. Stay on soft surfaces even if it means running the same trail all the time or running loops around a field. It can be boring but until your connective tissue gets used to running and until the weight comes off you have to stay on soft surfaces.

I personally like using a treadmill for runs when I'm getting back into it. I find them more forgiving than the roads and very little risk of acute injuries like sprained ankles, etc. Do mini-fartleks. 10 minute warm up at 10+ minute pace, 5 minutes at 8:50, 5 minutes back at 10....this helps you get used to a faster "easy" pace and I find these workouts break up the boredom of a treadmill.

Find a cross training activity that you can fall back on because there will be days when you cannot run. Biking, swimming, elliptical...find what works best for you and start doing in place of or in addition to your runs.

Accept that this new phase of your running life is 90% injury avoidance and you will flourish. Prehab/Rehab to your needs. Dont expect to roll out of bed and start running. Allow your body to warm up and recover.

If you stick with it for a few weeks YOU WILL GET FIT AGAIN. It will happen. You are 30, not 60 (although some mornings you will feel/move like 60). Your goal is feasible if you stay diligent.

So Day 2 after making this post and what you guys have said is already ringing true. I did 30 mins @ 8:00 pace yesterday morning, before I typed up the original post. If you reference the numbers I originally posted, specifically 8:30 pace feeling like threshold pace, then you'll know this wasn't exactly an easy run. Of course, it felt great when I finished it (I'm back, right?), but at the same time I couldn't help comparing to the old days when that pace was a joke. I'm sure that mentality is what made me overly push the pace to begin with.

Fast forward to this morning. I felt dead. 6 runs in 8 days and I can barely get out of bed. Thing is, I own a landscaping company and while I don't do manual labor everyday, I do enough to still have a strong core and to be familiar with being "sore" in the morning. But I gotta admit, I had completely forgotten the feeling of runner's fatigue (after 8 days, sheesh).

Point is, I wish I had read all of these posts before I popped off that run yesterday morning. I had some early morning obligations today so today's run will have to be after work this evening. Will keep it much more controlled, for sure (probably won't have a choice). My hammy and achilles are already sore, but at least my shins still feel fine (my old high school nemesis).

Again, thanks for the replies. I don't know what it is exactly but reading all of the repeated advice to ease back into it is really what I need to hear, because even though 30 years might not be old it's certainly old enough to be set in your ways. And when you try to change those ways (cut out the alcohol, really?), something like an injury is a sure-fire way to reset everything.

I'm curious, though. Anybody actually think sub 7:00 pace for half in 5 months is feasible? Or should I reevaluate? Obviously the plan is to run many more after this first one...

Good advice here from everyone. Agree injury avoidance / prehab is critical - can't improve if you can't run though it is frustrating delaying gratification by not training as much and as hard as you feel you might. Better to do that half in 5 months a little undertrained than watching from the sidelines wearing a boot. Cross training can likely help feed the hunger here. I'm all for softer surfaces on comeback as well. I love trails and have also used treadmills to soften things up. I've also used the treadmill on a steep incline to reduce impact forces and strengthen quads to rehab an injured knee (2 weeks jogging steeps on the treadmill had me running outside injury free after months of frustration and no luck with resting it). And I don't care what the research says re soft surfaces and impact forces - I know from how it feels that a soft trail or treadmill is easier on the bod than concrete. That said, too soft / uneven can tire out untrained ancillary muscles more quickly and also lead to injury (I might choose concrete over a long beach run on soft sand). However, I wouldn't want to jump into long distance on the road without building up some road miles.

It's true that there isn't much in the literature on getting back to running after aging through a long layoff. I think Daniels has referred to us as "reruns" and stated that we are prone to injury because of being overzealous in wanting to return to former fitness levels. That said, the literature might have you think you're completely detrained and starting from scratch after a long layoff but I don't believe that because of running economy gains associated with experience and better form and biomechanics - your body knows how to run more efficiently (faster turnover, shorter strides, etc.) which I think can help reduce injury risk compared to someone who has no experience. And I've always found it easier to get back to where I was than it was to get there in the first place, (e.g., years to get to sub-3 versus months now) though maybe its psychological or I've trained harder on a comeback, I really don't know. And I've been able to run mileage on return that would have injured me as a newbie. Not sure why though I like suspect it may be running easier on easy runs, better form, and knowing what getting injured feels like and avoiding same. I think the first few months are probably most critical from an injury and psychological standpoint. It takes that long for bones to break down from the stress and remodel and become stronger so I think vigilance re a stress reaction or fracture in toes/feet/shins during the first 12 weeks really has to be a priority. Any soreness or pain upon palpation demands time out and maybe cross-training to satisfy the hunger. I like to run doubles as well. Even if the mileage isn't super high, I think it is a lot easier on the body to break up the miles and allow the muscles some rest and recovery to reduce the pounding on the bones, tendons, ligaments. That said, they demand more time so have to watch the balance between recovery vs burnout.

I agree too that pace doesn't matter (I never bother with a watch or GPS on easy runs). I like to know how much I've been running but could care less how fast I'm running my easy runs so long as they're nice and slow but getting faster at the same effort as the months slip by. I'll have a rough idea of time and distance via the clock at home and knowing my routes, but not accurate enough to know my pace in any meaningful way. I think all the running in the beginning should be easy or recovery pace aside from a few pick ups / strides as described by hart crane. I'll slow to recovery pace to get miles in for a day or two if my legs feel tired, but I'll take a day or two completely off if it feels more metabolic - like my soul is getting ground down.

I've tended to run the tempos after a couple weeks back just because I'm impatient, they're not as intense as intervals, and provide an objective means of knowing where I'm at / seeing improvement which helps me mentally / its motivating. Not sure it would be for everyone, but its worked okay for me so far.

Having people to run with has helped me a ton over the years. Whether it's the motivation of getting to spend an hour or two talking with a friend on an easy run, or having to meet someone in the wee hours of the morning for a run before work, it helps to get you out and avoid burnout. I don't have that right now which is a real drag. Listening to the occasional running podcast (e.g., Rogue Runners) have helped me feel less alone out there grinding out the miles.

Sleep - I try to get as much as I can. I definitely need more when I'm putting in the miles. I think it's easy to neglect but is a critical aspect of training - key to me trying to stay positive, have the energy I need, and recover/adapt/reduce injury risk.

Cheers

You are making it too complicated. I have a simple recipe assuming you want to come back in half-marathon or longer distance. 1) Run 250 miles at ALL easy pace (Depending on your mileage, it can be 6-9 weeks). 2) Run next 250 miles: 35-40 miles threshold pace workout with good rest, 210-215 miles ALL easy. (6-8 weeks) 3) Pick any training program you like and continue.

Fair enough. To run fast, run fast. To run far, run far. To run fast and far, run fast, far and a lot.

Cheers

So, I've actually done this.

You want to think in terms of six-week blocks. The first six weeks should be all about starting to get used to running again. Slow down even more until you're certain that it's not doing you any good. It is, of course. Get easy effort dialed in again. Pace may pick up a bit over the block; third week or so is usually the nadir.

If you can get to six weeks of running every day, or almost every day, then you can think about what to do next.

If it helps, check the Nike run club app out. It's got some amazing runs which will keep you mentally and physically strong.

There's also a run called the 'comeback run'!

Comeback Dude wrote:

I'm curious, though. Anybody actually think sub 7:00 pace for half in 5 months is feasible? Or should I reevaluate? Obviously the plan is to run many more after this first one...

Yes, you can.

Lots of excellent advice already offered. Key will be avoiding injuries, and losing some of the extra weight (you're 50 pounds above high school weight?).

As has been said, you need to gently strengthen tendon, ligaments, etc by not overdoing it for a while. Minimal mileage for a few weeks, maybe run only every other day.

I've been plus-30 pounds a few times, and losing half that was enough to race sub-7 pace for 13 miles. That was very doable in five months, although you have a bit more to shed. I'm assuming your high school times were better than mine, so that's a plus (4:45 mile, 17-min 5K for me).

Also, at only 30 now, you'll be able to set new PRs goings forward. Maybe not at 800m, but certainly at 5K and longer.

BTW, I'm currently 30 lbs over race weight, and can't break 9 minutes for a mile. But I haven't given up on my goal of running 6:30-pace for 15K -- in less than four months. I'm starting with just 4 miles every other day. We'll see ...

Good luck. Stay healthy!

Thanks for the responses guys. Admittedly, I'm not an experienced poster and while I'd like to figure out how to quote specific excerpts from multiple people, I don't have the time right this moment. Speaking of time, that is another (perhaps too philosophical) topic on my mind regarding a comeback. Basically, my days were already full enough before this endeavor, so what gets the axe? You guys won't mind if I turn this into my own personal ex-runner-comes-back-overcomes-life-problems journal, will you?

In all seriousness, as I said in the OP, this is something I've taken on for myself (and consequently, for those around me). I can't ignore the real life ramifications part of it, but the main reason I posted here is for the wealth of knowledge and experience that those who might read it possess, as has already been demonstrated. As bcrr_raj said above, perhaps it is being over-complicated (I like your plan, btw - thanks). But I've read everything here and I have a strong feeling that had I not, I would have ended up injured and/or just would have relegated the whole thing to something that was meant for my past. There's value here, is my point.

To the post I quoted above:

-Yes, about 50 lbs, but to be fair at least some of that is muscle that I've picked up from my landscaping career (was 6'0", 150 in high school, something something beer gut).

-Definitely agree on the strengthening connective tissue part, it's all very sore at the moment. Anybody know some good exercises for this? A lot of people mentioned running on soft surfaces, which fortunately I'm more inclined to do anyway. However, I like being in the woods (I'm a Horticulturist) so with trail running I also have experienced the opposite side of that problem as was mentioned, namely the running surface being overly uneven. A happy balance perhaps? I'm probably at about 50/50 right now with hard surfaces and soft surfaces, but I've also been running a few short, easy miles on the beach.

-It's very good to know that you've been able to get into that shape after that amount of time, I certainly need something to aim at. I had marginally better high school times (4:25, 16:15 (XC)), but I have a feeling I've abused my body a bit more than most this past decade (which is really why this is so important to me).

-Best of luck to you in your own goals, I appreciate the insight.

In summary, I'm not really a rah-rah kind of dude but the combination of facts with encouragement that you guys have shared really has been helpful. Did an easy 3.2 last night but I think it was still too quick. One thing I'm definitely lacking is a good supplemental routine. I do some basic stretches and core exercises and some weird Chi warm-up I found on YouTube, but I don't really know what I'm doing in that regard. Once my career settles in I would like to take a stab at coaching one day, so I'm trying to figure all of this stuff out. I know I'll never coach unless I completely believe in what I'm preaching. Thanks again everybody.

Also, one more thing I meant to ask. Is there any particular reason that coming back slow and easy helps get all of your systems back in order? I mean, is it more physiological or more mental? It seems to me like time running would be the more critical issue here. A footfall is a footfall right? I guess there's the increased distance and stress between footfalls at faster paces. Is that it? (Duh). Balance (duh). So I guess my real question is, is there more benefit in 30 mins at a slightly quicker pace, or 40 mins at a slightly slower pace knowing that that 40 mins results in more ligament and tendon stress, etc. Pretty sure that's an age old question with a lot of literature behind it, but again I'm coming from the point of view of starting over from scratch with limited time during my day, so wondering more from an experience point of view vs. a textbook point of view. I think writing out the perfect training plan on paper is one thing, and transferring it to reality is another. Balance, I know. I know many of you guys have talked about when you personally have incorporated such things as tempos and strides, etc. Just trying to relate the questions that pop up in my head as I go through this.

Comeback Dude wrote:

You guys won't mind if I turn this into my own personal ex-runner-comes-back-overcomes-life-problems journal, will you?

Definitely looking forward to following along!

BTW, I looked up my high school times after posting earlier, and the best 5000m (track) I could find was 17:33 at age 16. So, I'd say your base talent is beyond "marginally better." Similar height/weight (5'11" 155 for me).

I understand your time challenges. Consistent training in my 20s and 30s was impossible -- career, long commutes, kids, home/property restoration and maintenance. But in my 40s I was able to make a "comeback," and bettered my high school 5K by 23 seconds.

After reading your post this morning, I tried running five miles ... 11:06, 10:34, 10:43, 10:15, 9:48. Pretty much "all out." Yikes --a long ways to go!

Thought you guys would might this story if you hadn't seen it:

https://runningmagazine.ca/the-scene/colin-mccourt-5k-bet/

https://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/a25725322/colin-mccourt/

Its about a former nationally competitive guy who took a very long hiatus, gained a lot of weight, started back with his first run at just over 12 min/mile pace, and then went on to run a 15:38 5k (5:01.9 pace) within a year. So who knows Comeback Dude - apparently your goal is feasible! Just don't do what so many marathoners do and feel like all of your hard work is a license to eat more. Focus on trying to eat healthy both quality and portion-wise without starving yourself and the weight will come off and you'll get faster.

And I think you're right re pace - slower means less force on each of take off and landing for every stride. Time running easy will provide adaptations re heart, blood, capillaries, mitochondria, bones, etc and allow more volume because of less injury and faster recovery. Intervals too early can lend to injury, are harder to recover from, and level off in terms of benefits after 4-6 weeks anyways so lots of time for that down the road. Not sure that there is a right answer re 30 mins harder, vs 40 mins easier. It might be true that running as much and as fast as you can without injury or overtraining is ideal but its kind of like parking by feel and a stress fracture would suck. I do think many folks run their easy runs too fast - running most of their runs at the same pace day in and day out which sounds like a recipe to plateau as you adapt to the stimulus which never changes. I prefer mostly easy, some recovery as needed, and a gradually increasing dose of quality (via tempo, stamina, and interval running) as fitness improves.

I've found general volume goals be they in terms of time or miles to be helpful and I haven't worried about sticking to a schedule per se as I prefer to go by how I'm feeling. If I'm feeling too fatigued, I'll run recover pace or take a day off or run a faster run a day or two later rather than feel obliged to something like its written in stone. I'll take a down week where I run less volume every few weeks or so, again based on how fatigued I'm feeling. This past week I was two miles shy of my volume goal but didn't bother running them because I felt whipped and figured it was kind of dumb to just do them for the sake of hitting a round number when it felt like they were just going to sink me further into fatigue / overreaching. I'm planning to do a tempo tomorrow but if it isn't feeling right in the first 3 mins, I'll pull the plug, run recovery pace and try again a day or two later...

Managing the time is hard. With family and work, I've always found I've had to try to get in as much as possible, as soon as possible (e.g., before work, early in the week), otherwise things end up getting in the way (sick kids, unforeseen meetings, whatever). I never liked running at night. I don't like getting up early either, but running at night just made me wired so I'd have a hard time getting to sleep. The time is another reason I've ran doubles or even triples sometimes. I figured, so long as a run wasn't sabotaging a quality workout, then it was just more grist for aerobic development. For a while I was able to run to work and back home (10k each way) and get another 3-4 miles in at lunch and felt like I got a ton of running in without interfering too much on the home front as I would have been commuting in the car or sitting on my arse at my desk for half that time anyways.

I do a series of stretches that include hamstring, quads, glutes, hip flexors, calf, achilles. I also like to do heel drops and raises to prehab the achilles:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/sore-achilles-things-have-to-get-worse-in-order-to-get-better/article551003/

Cheers

When you start running, your cardiovascular fitness improves, your muscles get stronger, and your skeletomuscular becomes more resilient.

But not all at the same pace. The problem is that you make rapid gains in cardiovascular fitness and muscular strength, but it takes much longer to strengthen bones, ligaments, and tendons. So overuse injuries are practically inevitable if you let heart/breathing rate dictate your pace, or worse, if you try to run the paces you remember running. You'll feel great for a week, then sore for a week, and then be unable to run because your knees are killing you. That's why starting off slow and short distance is important at first. You're waiting for the rest of your body to catch up.