BTW remember the 'Dirty Triangle' ? Dirty Italian doctors and managers, the TdF (the ultimate testing ground), Spanish cyclists and runners, North African runners. Refinements go back to the dirty Italian doctors and managers to improve the cocktails and the process starts all over again.
badabeu wrote:
rojo wrote:
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Her husband is not moroccan. She comes from the center of France (Cusset), and you can't be more "french" than her. Saying that there is racism behind the targeted testing is just a very bad excuse for some people.
She doesn't have 3 "no show", she "just" refused being tested after the 5km record because she said she didn't care about this record. When she was in Morocco she changed her (inaccurate) location 13 times in 15 days on her ADAMS profile, sometimes being 4h drive away from she really was (Ouarzazate vs Marrakech). The people from the french antidoping agency (AFLD) caught her on the street in Marrakech, and then things apparently turned bad. In the end they couldn't test her.
What wasn't known outside of the AFLD until recently, was that her ABP has been suspicious for years, and that there also been a long term inquiry from the OCLAESP (a section of the National Police) about traffic of (doping) drugs involving Calvin and her husband. Where things have turned really bad is that there is a kind of competition between AFLD and OCLAESP, and people of AFLD kind of fucked up with the sketchy testing in Marrakech, as OCLAESP was about to catch them.
The "funny" thing is that for once there is too many people wanting to catch the dopers.
AFLD and OCLAESP are independent from the french athletics federation (FFA), and the FFA seems to be far less willing to find who is cheating. Business must go on I guess...
Anyway, things don't look great here regarding sketchy performances; Morhad Amdouni who ran 2h09 in Paris was running his 1st marathon and was just expected to rabbit for 25km, and Nicolas Navarro who ran 2h11 was a 2h25-2h30 for years, but discovered over the last few years that he could run much faster. How is another question... Of course both love to train either in Ifrane or in Kenya.
This post states the situation perfectly and succinctly, and is essentially all you need to know. If a situation as this type is not sanctioned, then all hope is lost.
Subway Surfers wrote:
Coevett wrote:
I don't know enough about the career of Gonzalez to say he was likely doping. I know he had various injuries that interrupted his career (and Abascal too), but after being left in the dust by the Brits for nearly a decade, if suddenly finding the ability to blast out a sub 50 second final lap to outkick Steve Cram at his peak, at the age of 28 isn't a tad suspicious, I don't really know what is.
Well I've stated it before, the Spanish can't afford to crack down on PEDs or their economy would collapse. No Real Madrid or Barcelona, no cyclists, no tennis players, even motorsports.
I know there's certainly a hotel in Sabadell short of a training group.
Subway Surfers wrote:
Coevett wrote:
I don't know enough about the career of Gonzalez to say he was likely doping. I know he had various injuries that interrupted his career (and Abascal too), but after being left in the dust by the Brits for nearly a decade, if suddenly finding the ability to blast out a sub 50 second final lap to outkick Steve Cram at his peak, at the age of 28 isn't a tad suspicious, I don't really know what is.
Well I've stated it before, the Spanish can't afford to crack down on PEDs or their economy would collapse. No Real Madrid or Barcelona, no cyclists, no tennis players, even motorsports.
I remember Spanish tennis taking off in the late-nineties and into the 2000's. Nadal has been physically unbelievable throughout his career - despite his many and fabled "injuries". When I saw Cacho's finish at Barcelona I didn't believe it. Still don't. It was like he only began the race in the last 250m.
rekrunner wrote:
Spain has a reputation for doping, but what separates me from most of you, is not so much suspicion of doping or prevalence of whatever population, but how that may or may not be connected to the fastest performances.
When I looked at performances, I specifically looked at how the fastest Spaniards performed, compared to other non-Africans around the world, and compared to the fastest pre-1990 performances. Despite their reputation, they didn't seem to stand out.
It depends on what view one takes on this (your analysis isn't the only way to evaluate this). If you're just comparing raw time with those of the East & North Africans, the Spanairds didn't match up with many of their mutant times (but who would when lightening fast runners come out of East Africa a dime a dozen. Lol).
But in terms of major medals, improved times from the country's performances pre-90's, individual improvement in times, etc., Spain was on fire. Probably one of the biggest head shakers would be in the marathon. Three WC golds, one WC silver and one EC gold all in the decade of the 90s...uncanny! Plus PBs in the 2:07's to 2:08's range -- pretty respectable back then. Compare this to Spain's marathon performance in the 80s; no WC or Olympic medals, no European championships, and their fastest marathoner was Traspaderne at 2:11xx. And one big cloud of suspicion on their 90s revolution:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/sport/athletics-suspicion-clouds-spanish-victory-1118336.html%3fampAnd even in the 00s, Spain kept the marathon train going. Their NR holder, Julio Rey (2:06:52), a confirmed doper, was doing damage on the European road scene winning 4 Hamburg marathons in 5 yrs, plus a WC silver in 03!
Subway Surfers wrote:
Ah but how clean were the Iberians before 1990?
What interests me more is how fast their performances were.
Clean or dirty, they were slower than the likes of Coe, Cram, Moorcroft, Jones, and Lopes.
Coevett wrote:
I answered this claim of yours ages ago. It's hard to compare Spain between the 80's and 90's for a variety of reasons, ...
I did not compare Spain between the '80s and '90s, so your answers seem to miss the mark.
Subway Surfers wrote:
This was the thing Rekrunner missed in his analysis. The Spanish were doping to win important things : the TdF, the Olympic 1500m, the Olympic road race, and big city marathons. Not so much about times but then again Cacho did run 3:28, now that's a Monaco time.
I would be interested to see your results of a similar "win important things" analysis that puts medal wins in a global context and perspective. For example, someone said Spain had 22 medals in the Olympics. Is 22 a lot? Well it is bigger than 4 from 1988. I see they were behind Cuba (31) and Germany (82). In Athletics, Spain only had 4 medals, behind non-African nations like Great Britain (6), Cuba (7), Germany (10), ex-USSR (21) and USA (30). 1996 seems to be slightly worse for Spain (17 medals overall with 2 in Athletics). But Cacho was fast, and won medals. I guess race-walking was also important to Spain.
I compared Spain to non-Africans, pre and post 1990, and they barely matched up. Lol. See above for my interest in a comparable medal table analysis.
Different viewpoints to look at wrote:
It depends on what view one takes on this (your analysis isn't the only way to evaluate this). If you're just comparing raw time with those of the East & North Africans, the Spanairds didn't match up with many of their mutant times (but who would when lightening fast runners come out of East Africa a dime a dozen. Lol).
But in terms of major medals, improved times from the country's performances pre-90's, individual improvement in times, etc., Spain was on fire. Probably one of the biggest head shakers would be in the marathon. Three WC golds, one WC silver and one EC gold all in the decade of the 90s...uncanny! Plus PBs in the 2:07's to 2:08's range -- pretty respectable back then. Compare this to Spain's marathon performance in the 80s; no WC or Olympic medals, no European championships, and their fastest marathoner was Traspaderne at 2:11xx. And one big cloud of suspicion on their 90s revolution:
And even in the 00s, Spain kept the marathon train going. Their NR holder, Julio Rey (2:06:52), a confirmed doper, was doing damage on the European road scene winning 4 Hamburg marathons in 5 yrs, plus a WC silver in 03!
What explains Spain going from 4 medals in '88 to 22 medals in '92? Imagine the US, China or Russia multiplying their respective medal table by more than 5x in a single Olympics. What would their tallies be? Anti-doping experts have said it is not enough to look for a sudden elevation in a single athlete's performance but that the significant improvement of a bloc or nationality is a dead giveaway.
rekrunner wrote:
I compared Spain to non-Africans, pre and post 1990, and they barely matched up. Lol. See above for my interest in a comparable medal table analysis.
Your pre & post data is bogus. Lol. Stick to the continents instead of grouping all the non-African countries into one category (this is how you stacked the deck in favor of your skewed stats.).
In the marathon pre-90's you took the top 5 times which only two Europeans were in there, with the fastest being Lopes from Portugal. The other three were from all over the world; Brazil, Australia & RSA. Compare the Europeans to the Europeans.
Furthermore, are those times from the pre-90's you're using clean....or any possibility of PED use? ? I think you better work on that before hanging your hat on your great analysis. Because if any of those times are suspicious for PED use then you're comparing PED use of one era with that of another! (especially with blood transfusions vs EPO). And that brings up a whole different discussion in terms of what type of PEDs & programs were being used by some athletes in the pre-90s vs post-90s use, and the effect it was having on performance.
In the medal count look at also WC & EC medals. You'll see Spain dominated many track & marathon events in both the 94 & 98 European Championships.
Armstronglivs wrote:
What explains Spain going from 4 medals in '88 to 22 medals in '92? Imagine the US, China or Russia multiplying their respective medal table by more than 5x in a single Olympics. What would their tallies be? Anti-doping experts have said it is not enough to look for a sudden elevation in a single athlete's performance but that the significant improvement of a bloc or nationality is a dead giveaway.
Wow!...that's far worst than Russia going from 15 at Vancouver to 33 at Sochi. ?
I don't know -- maybe it took that long to recover from Franco. But what is sure is that Spain sucked in the 1980s, and in the 1990s, brought themselves up to European standards.
Armstronglivs wrote:
What explains Spain going from 4 medals in '88 to 22 medals in '92? Imagine the US, China or Russia multiplying their respective medal table by more than 5x in a single Olympics. What would their tallies be? Anti-doping experts have said it is not enough to look for a sudden elevation in a single athlete's performance but that the significant improvement of a bloc or nationality is a dead giveaway.
I'm happy to read your modified analysis, any subsequent conclusions, but post it in the other thread.
Lets Think This One Through wrote:
Your pre & post data is bogus. Lol. ...
The other three were from Ethiopia, Djibouti, and Japan -- you were close.
Lets Think This One Through wrote:
In the marathon pre-90's you took the top 5 times which only two Europeans were in there, with the fastest being Lopes from Portugal. The other three were from all over the world; Brazil, Australia & RSA.
rekrunner wrote:
I don't know -- maybe it took that long to recover from Franco.
But what is sure is that Spain sucked in the 1980s, and in the 1990s, brought themselves up to European standards.
Armstronglivs wrote:
What explains Spain going from 4 medals in '88 to 22 medals in '92? Imagine the US, China or Russia multiplying their respective medal table by more than 5x in a single Olympics. What would their tallies be? Anti-doping experts have said it is not enough to look for a sudden elevation in a single athlete's performance but that the significant improvement of a bloc or nationality is a dead giveaway.
How was the legacy of Franco holding sporting achievement back? And how was that legacy turned around in the space of only four years? The simplest explanation - as it is usually - is that doping became wholesale in Spanish sports in the early nineties with the occasion of the Barcelona Olympics.
Lack of national priority and investment and infrastructure? The simplest answer is that they sucked in the '80s, and before, because they weren't trying to be competitive internationally. As I was told above, you cannot compare the Spain of the '90s to the Spain of the '80s for many reasons. Hosting the Olympics probably played the biggest role in attracting investment into athletes, reflecting the national shift in priorities to investment in international sports. Before 1980, as far back as 1900, Spain only ever won 0, 1, or 2 medals. In the '80s, Spain won 6, 5, and 4 medals. In 1992, they won 22, their highest medal count ever. (Thereafter, 17, 11, 20, 19, 18, and 17). And once again, 22 medals, while unprecedented for Spain, is not remarkable at a world level, or even European level -- it placed them behind Australia (27), France (29), South Korea (29), Hungary (29), Cuba (31), and Germany (82).
Armstronglivs wrote:
How was the legacy of Franco holding sporting achievement back? And how was that legacy turned around in the space of only four years? The simplest explanation - as it is usually - is that doping became wholesale in Spanish sports in the early nineties with the occasion of the Barcelona Olympics.
Armstronglivs wrote:
Subway Surfers wrote:
Well I've stated it before, the Spanish can't afford to crack down on PEDs or their economy would collapse. No Real Madrid or Barcelona, no cyclists, no tennis players, even motorsports.
I remember Spanish tennis taking off in the late-nineties and into the 2000's. Nadal has been physically unbelievable throughout his career - despite his many and fabled "injuries". When I saw Cacho's finish at Barcelona I didn't believe it. Still don't. It was like he only began the race in the last 250m.
Did someone say Cacho in Barcelona? Ha! This is satirical.
https://youtu.be/JrH6Y6ZcdTIThe question of the day: How many times did Cacho bob his head in the last 150m? ?
Yes the weakness of his analysis is comparing like with like. For 5,000m pre-1990 his top 5 average was 13:02 but 2 of the fastest 3 were Africans (Aouita and Maree). When the two are excluded the average jumps to 13:04/05 and the numbers of non-Africans in advance of this time since suddenly jumps from something like 8/9 to 15 or so. The overwhelming evidence also shows that the further the distance the greater the gains from epo and that altitude natives are the biggest gainers.
Exactly. I remember rekrunner would make fun of Alberto Garcia, a confirmed EPO user, with a PB of 13:02.54 for not being able to run faster than the pre-90's 5k average (Garcia would be Spain's fastest 5k guy & NR holder if you throw out blood bag-Bezabeh, who's Ethiopian). But as you point out if you throw out the two African times, Garcia beats the pre-90's average by at least 2 secs. This is how our esteemed statiscian played with the stats. Lol. There's no question he wanted to bring down the number of European times post-90s to show the lowest number possible running faster than the pre-90's averages. It's all in how you what to frame the argument. ?
rekrunner wrote:
[quote]Subway Surfers wrote:
Ah but how clean were the Iberians before 1990?
What interests me more is how fast their performances were.
Clean or dirty, they were slower than the likes of Coe, Cram, Moorcroft, Jones, and Lopes.
[quote]
When did Coe and Cram run 3-28 xx for 1500m? When did Moorcroft run sub 7-30 for 3000m? When did Lopes and Jones run 2h 6xx for the marathon?
Dates and performances please or what you have said here is just not true.