Tinman Multi-Paced Training - Why Don’t More Coaches Use It?

Cause 20 x 400 and 10 x 1k have been used by faster runner.

It doesn't matter. The 200-400s and hill charges and 100m strides are all just the icing on the cake. Tinman prescribes them with long recoveries, to focus on form and learning to relax at higher paces.

A talented runner with plenty of natural speed probably doesn't even need it, as there is no cardiovascular benefit/increase in fitness.

Tinman also combines stuff like 4x1k @CV, followed by 6x600m at VO2MAX, followed by 4x200 at mile down to 800m. That is very useful, as both the CV and VO2MAX have high fitness gains and the 200s teach how to be fast and relax on tired legs. The second big advantage is that the CV warms up for the VO2MAX, which warms up for the very fast 200s. So there is literally ZERO injury risk despite having VO2MAX work in it as long as the cool down is long enough.

The training of my group has been somewhat influenced by Tom. It produced a 1:52/3:51 800/1500 for senior in HS and 153/358 for junior. Mileage is low 50 and 35 so modifications allow for gradual improvement. Also had female place to 50 at world schools so yea the art of coaching.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

. So there is literally ZERO injury risk despite having VO2MAX work in it as long as the cool down is long enough.

Huh?

People get injured from anything and everything.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

... So there is literally ZERO injury risk despite having VO2MAX work ...

Bravo — Complete math and English failure simultaneously!

Because most coaches do not know what they are doing. They do not understand what Tinman is focusing on and why he is. Most coaches coach from their personal experience or flip from season to season with something they think will get their athletes to a break through, unbeknownst to them, limited by their training follies.

Ron Warhurst has been doing this since the 70s

This training is not unique or innovative. My HS coach in the 1960s did this type of training. My College Coach also did something similar.

egos wrote:

Because most coaches do not know what they are doing. They do not understand what Tinman is focusing on and why he is. Most coaches coach from their personal experience or flip from season to season with something they think will get their athletes to a break through, unbeknownst to them, limited by their training follies.

Please enlighten us on what we are doing wrong and what we should be doing. I want to get better. Help me do a better job. Thanks.

Because it doesn't work. Liberals just want an easy way out for everything. Unfortunately in running, the only answer is hard, all out long runs and hard, VO2 max intervals on the track.

Hfjsjdj wrote:

Everybody thinks that Tinman training is all about Critical Velocity. While that’s a key component of the training, a majority of Tinman’s workouts have three training paces:

1) tempo/threshold/CV

2) Hills

3) Short Speed

I’ve seen a handful of coaches do something like a tempo run or 600s or 800s or k’s or mile reps followed by shorter, faster reps of 100m-400m but I’ve never seen three training paces used so consistently in one session and I’ve rarely seen combinations of reps and hills (the only that come to mind are NOP and Warhurst/Nick Willis).

Why don’t more coaches use these combo workouts of longer track reps and hills or three training paces in a single session?

Because it`s simply not the best way of training! Easy as that ! ))

They do. I'd say a lot of them do. Maybe yours doesn't.

Plenty of coaches do it. It's not like it's just Tinman's idea, it's something that a lot of people know about. There are several reasons why it's not super common...mainly because it's still up for debate whether or not it's actually better than just having a separate workout for each pace; plenty of runners, including every world record holder, have run mostly "classic" workouts all at the same pace.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Tinman also combines stuff like 4x1k @CV, followed by 6x600m at VO2MAX, followed by 4x200 at mile down to 800m. That is very useful, as both the CV and VO2MAX have high fitness gains and the 200s teach how to be fast and relax on tired legs. The second big advantage is that the CV warms up for the VO2MAX, which warms up for the very fast 200s. So there is literally ZERO injury risk despite having VO2MAX work in it as long as the cool down is long enough.

This is an interesting post and somewhat enticing. I am interested in the idea that things like 4x1000 or 10x400 hard could be less risky for injury if done after 20-30 minutes of tempo or cruise intervals, and also the having several days to recover rather than coming back to it just 2-3 days later. Of course that one workout would be a beast!

As a 40-something miler who more and more finds himself injured trying to do two workouts per week (plus a long run on the week), I wonder if I could change my usual Tuesday VO2/racepace + Thursday tempo to simply doing a tempo AND faster work in one session. It would probably be important not to skimp on strides and drills on the other days, with only one "fast" day per week, but I might try this!

mastersman wrote:

This is an interesting post and somewhat enticing. I am interested in the idea that things like 4x1000 or 10x400 hard could be less risky for injury if done after 20-30 minutes of tempo or cruise intervals, and also the having several days to recover rather than coming back to it just 2-3 days later. Of course that one workout would be a beast!

As a 40-something miler who more and more finds himself injured trying to do two workouts per week (plus a long run on the week), I wonder if I could change my usual Tuesday VO2/racepace + Thursday tempo to simply doing a tempo AND faster work in one session. It would probably be important not to skimp on strides and drills on the other days, with only one "fast" day per week, but I might try this!

You would not want to do a 20-30 mins of tempo or cruise intervals and THEN add 4x 1000 at VO2 or 10x 400. Too much. But a 15-20 min warmup including a few mins (3-4) at threshold pace and some strides followed by 4-5x 800-1000 meters at CV pace (use the Tinman calculator or just add about 12 seconds per 400 to your mile race pace per quarter, so a 5:00 miler would run 2:54 for 800 meters for CV pace) with 200 jog rest in between each rep, then followed by 3-4x 400 at mile race pace (400 jog rest) and 2-3 x 200 a little quicker might be about right. 10-15 min run afterwards and you have a decent multi-pace workout day that won't wipe you out.

The real reason:

https://youtu.be/7uJL8er_tV0

TinmanTrainer wrote:

You would not want to do a 20-30 mins of tempo or cruise intervals and THEN add 4x 1000 at VO2 or 10x 400. Too much. But a 15-20 min warmup including a few mins (3-4) at threshold pace and some strides followed by 4-5x 800-1000 meters at CV pace (use the Tinman calculator or just add about 12 seconds per 400 to your mile race pace per quarter, so a 5:00 miler would run 2:54 for 800 meters for CV pace) with 200 jog rest in between each rep, then followed by 3-4x 400 at mile race pace (400 jog rest) and 2-3 x 200 a little quicker might be about right. 10-15 min run afterwards and you have a decent multi-pace workout day that won't wipe you out.

This is good stuff. Tinman prescribes VO2MAX very sparingly and often specific to race distance.

1600m runner: 3x1k @CV + 6x400 @VO2MAX + 6x100 @400m

3200m runner: 3x1k @CV + 5x600 @VO2MAX + 4x200 @800m

5000m runner: 4x1k @CV + 4x800 @VO2MAX + 3x400 @mile

Those are typical Tinman CV sessions depending on the event. In racing season, he would do these 3-4 days before a race or a race simulation workout (which is mostly around VO2MAX pace as well).

Hfjsjdj wrote:

Everybody thinks that Tinman training is all about Critical Velocity. While that’s a key component of the training, a majority of Tinman’s workouts have three training paces:

1) tempo/threshold/CV

2) Hills

3) Short Speed

I’ve seen a handful of coaches do something like a tempo run or 600s or 800s or k’s or mile reps followed by shorter, faster reps of 100m-400m but I’ve never seen three training paces used so consistently in one session and I’ve rarely seen combinations of reps and hills (the only that come to mind are NOP and Warhurst/Nick Willis).

Why don’t more coaches use these combo workouts of longer track reps and hills or three training paces in a single session?

Tempo, threshold, and CV aren't even the same thing + PLENTY of coaches combine speed with tempo's in their workouts. Maybe a few coaches do hill repeats in a different session, but my coach would at least incorporate hills into the middle of repeats on a XC course and tell us to drive up them.

This isn't Tinman's grand idea, almost every intelligible college and professional coach incorporates this in their workouts

ncrecuvuer wrote:

This isn't Tinman's grand idea, almost every intelligible college and professional coach incorporates this in their workouts

This is precisely the point that Tinman-bashers miss. Other than, maybe, the focus on CV (say, what was that workout Eliud Kipchoge has done multiple times in the last 6 weeks? 10-15x1000 at between 10k and half marathon pace? Hmmm), nothing Tinman prescribes is entirely original. It's just that it all happens to be intelligent, scientifically- or evidence-based training.