Screw It. Is Sub-4 Possible for Me?

Sub-4:10 would be fantastic and clearly more realistic, but why not dream big and go for broke?

I ran a 4:09 mile (not 1600) in high school. I got to 4:04 while running in a big power 5 school within 2 years. I then proceeded to get a long string of injuries starting with tendonitis, and then stress fracture, then more tendonitis, etc. I never really came back and decided to throw in the towel 2 years after that.

I give you .01% chance.

4:06 in the mile? Jamie Norton is that you?

RunningChef wrote:

Sub-4:10 would be fantastic and clearly more realistic, but why not dream big and go for broke?

Why not jump off a bridge and see if you can fly? Really go for broke!

Way more milage. 5K needs to be at least 14:30. Need way more aerobic capacity. There are several High Schoolers with your times.

RunningChef wrote:

Sub-4:10 would be fantastic and clearly more realistic, but why not dream big and go for broke?

Because of several reasons:

- sub 4:00 is incredibly difficult/unrealistic for you

-you need to have incremental goals

> I'm sure you've been in a position where you hit a difficult goal and then you thought, "Hmm, maybe I can run X-time now?" Do it that way and build momentum

- Aiming for the ultimate goal isn't a good way to do it training wise. You need to train to hit sub 4:20, then sub 4:15, sub 4:10 etc Your fitness will follow and so will the realm of possibility

-You'll need to run sub 4:10 to even be considered to run in a race with sub 4:00 minute guys. Unless you think you can just go out on a track with some buddies and be cheered to a solo 3:59 (yeah right)

That's why not to go for broke.

Please document your process and report back

I definitely plan on taking baby steps in this process. “Go for broke” meant even starting this journey whatsoever. I’m aware of HS runners having better PRs, how crazy this is, etc. I’m a huge fan of the sport and follow it fairly close, so I know what I’m getting into. I spent a lot of years screwing around and being half-committed, all leading to me learning to have fun with it again.

Indoor was a blast. Most of the races felt easy, as I was closing very quickly, then bouncing back less than an hour to race again with decent results. After giving it much thought, I said f!c@ it, why not? Having this goal in mind has me feeling a bit more focused and gives me some sense of purpose. Maybe this will inspire some other no name hobbyjogger to think a bit outside of the box and do something bold. Maybe it won’t. Regardless, I’m lacing up and seeing what happens.

I already started another thread where I’ll be posting my weekly training. I’ll update every Sunday evening. :)

The cold hard trouxth wrote:

In all earnest I wish you luck OP and hope I am wrong.

Coach JS could you elaborate on how breaking 4 is easier than most think? I’m just saying, only about 500 American men to have broken it in history...

Well…...as I said it only requires 20 x 400m at 66 sec and LT-intervals at about 4:50 mile pace. Not a very high talent needed then…..

you are a hero.

best of luck.

no way man.

give any world class coach a guy with 49 quarter and some cross country, half marathon ability, and he'll give you a 4 minute mile. but 406 is what happens when you have a B game going with your talent.

you need a coach, and you need the right approach, you need to be fanatical, you need altitude, and some luck, no injuries and you got a shot.

certainly to get a 4 minute mile at age 30, it can be done, but you're going to have to be a monk about it, fanatic. and you're going to need world class coaching, which can be done by yourself, but probably not,

you want to get that 400 speed down to 50 seconds for the quarter, or under 52 at least, without totally neglecting mileage. that is first and foremost. so do a half miler's schedule first, then work in the mileage. you want to do altitude like kenya even, and get a new head space. you will get your butt handed to you on a plate, but your middle distance ability will improve dramatically.

all these fuggin yahoos commenting about what you HAVE to do. Bollox, you don't HAVE to do ANY of those things... they damn sure help, but they're not set in stone. I barely broke 155 and still broke 4, though I only ran a few 800's in my life. I also closed at least 3 different 15's/Miles in 155, so perhaps I just really sucked at running two laps.

fwiw, you *will* have to get the 5K ability into the 14's, at the very least, but don't kill yourself over 800 ability, has a minute amount to do with success/failure of the given goal.

Is it likely? Of course it's not but, like you mentioned, why not give it a year, year and a half, and see what happens? Worst that happens is you end up with marginally better PR's and have something to feel good about in your 30's. Good for you. I'm at a more advanced age nowadays and breaking 5 is tough, though I still do it on random occasions to make myself feel alive.

Oh golly gee. Another runner who has decided to throw caution to the wind and "just go for it". He can talk about how great it is to "just for for it", and some people can chime in about how excited they are to see him "just go for it". Also, he shouldn't pay any attention to reality when he doesn't improve much, if at all. I'm so excited!!

As an observer of the LRC, I notice that the predictor/race specific workouts are way off of what I would do personally. Admittedly, this is a contributing factor to this batsh!t idea. The PRs that I ran this winter were off of such low mileage with not much speedwork, so it’s crazy to see people doing 10-20x200-400 @ 800/mile pace with anywhere from 1-2 min rest.

Since I come from more of a speed background, doing intervals faster than race pace seems to work best coupled with longer rest.

Example:

3x600 @ 1:37, 1:36; 4x200 @ 28-30 all w/ 1:30 jogging rest

Obviously with higher mileage, the interval load will increase, but will still be below the 5% of weekly “repetition” pace. So either I just don’t need a lot of interval work, or I’m undertraining a bit.

@RunningChef's enthusiasm and commitment to running fast at the middle distances are admirable, but the odds against him going sub-4 are extremely long. The number of runners who have gone sub-4 for the first time in their lives when they were north of age 30 is very small, and those that did it already had lengthy world-class pedigrees at other distances. George Young did it at 34, Gerard Donakowski at 33, and Henry Marsh at 31. (Other posters, please chime in if you know of any others).

I don't think anyone has ever made such a quantum improvement past age 30 as going from 4:19 to sub-4.

Everyone chiming in with opinions about this fellas chances, both for and against, are amounting to a solid collection of informative nuggets.

On a purely statistical level the chances are slim.

But assuming you find the journey itself rewarding and have fun doing it, I think it isn't impossible. Prove the haters wrong, human spirit is indomitable. Eamonn Coghlan ran sub 4 at 41 (course he had many sub 4's to his name already) but that was coming off being out of shape, fat, smoking cigars (vide

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/21/sports/track-and-field-coghlan-over-40-under-4-minutes.html

). It wasn't easy, he had to have very intense massage therapy during which he would apparently howl in pain.

My favorite excerpt of his fitness before starting the over 40 sub 4 question :

"In 1990, at 37, Coghlan retired, stopped running, smoked cigars and gained 15 pounds. Fed up, he got back in shape in 1991 and took aim at the Runner's World Master's Mile, a series of races for top male runners 40 and older."

So, ignoring is immense talent and lifetime base of mileage, you are ahead of the curve! You are under 40 and don't smoke cigars regularly. Consider it an advantage.

RunningChef wrote:

the predictor/race specific workouts are way off of what I would do personally.

Predict with a Kosmin test, which is science-based on the cumulative data from the Soviet sports program.

3x600 @ 1:37, 1:36; 4x200 @ 28-30 all w/ 1:30 jogging rest

Which part of this workout is faster than your current race pace, all or just the 200's?