Wiener schnitzel wrote:
Well spoken man. The idiots think it’s the plate but that damn foam is the most responsive soft thing to ever hit the market. It is ten times softer than any Hoka. The plate was for marketing and so the shoe didn’t just break into pieces after 10 runs because the foam is so soft.
Ha ha, superb!
Moo Goo wrote:
tarckstar wrote:
So now buyers of non-Nike shoes can have career-ending PF issues, too?
Where did you get this? I had a left foot problem that I am mending since training exclusively in Zoom Fly w/ carbon plate. I have no idea if that is the reason but if read anything concrete about it.
I dont think you should train exclusively in the Zoom Fly and believe Nike went on to say its best to keep them for races or speedier runs.
I tried them as a trainer and I absolutely hated the original version it was too soft. Bought a pair of the flyknit from the Salvation Army and they are night and day with the react and real carbon fiber plate unlike the OG.
However, I still only break them out for tempo or races.
uninformed ppl wrote:
Everyone thinks the carbon plate is what gives VF4 it's big advantage, when in reality it's the ZoomX foam at such a nice stack height that gives you that bounce AND allows your legs to stay fresher over the entire marathon distance. A hard plate is nothing new in shoe technology and has been put in track spikes widely and some other shoes for years. Sketchers doesn't have the R&D to come up with a comparable foam, so their shoe won't be nearly as effective.
Exactly.
The entire idea of carbon plate acting like a spring is just the consequence of not understanding basic laws of physics i.e. energy cannot be created or destroyed it can only be transferred. Carbon plate cannot create more energy than you put in your step, it can only help you not to lose the energy you already exerted. When you run with each step you lose some energy when landing on toes and bending foot joints. Carbon plate allows you to conserve that energy and this makes you a little bit more efficient but at the same time it makes your other joints work more. The net result is a bit of energy saving but it's nothing revolutionary. Carbon plates have been around since at least early 90s and many track spikes and shoes have had them long before VF4% were invented.
Shunpo wrote:
Sketchers proto coming very soon. Lower stack height, lower heel to toe drop, hyper foam, carbon plate.
Thank the Lord!
Does Sketchers have a similar sort of research budget for developing their shoes compared with a company like Nike? I had the impression that Nike researched the heck out of biomechanics and running to develop their 4% shoes and this sort of shoe would not be easy for another company to develop without the necessary research put into the project.
Heel strikers and 4mm suck. That aside as I realize it’s personal preference, the contour of the shoe in the razor is too straight throughout the entire section...needs more room in middle and less in toebox. I did 50 miles in them but couldn’t see what made them better than other shoes, especially for their price. Foam is fine, but not the super cushy response I get in zoom flys or vaporflys or even the latest Reebok’s. Also they brick up bade in cold temps. If I am going to spend big money I expect big tech.
The Floyd wrote:
To each his or her own. I really like the Razor 3 and loathe the Zoom Fly (which I made the mistake of buying). But your comments about low stack height and the footbed are misguided. The Razor 3 is decidedly not a low stack shoe, it has the stack height of the "performance trainer" category and has literally the same stack height as the Kinvara. I can't imagine what you'd think of a an actual racing shoe if you think the Razor 3 and Kinvara are low stack.
ughhhh wrote:
More pool foam shoes.
Maybe they work for 5k's, but the low stack height and the odd contours of the footbed suck with sketchers. Tried the razor 3 and was totally not impressed - would rather pay the same for on sale zoom flys or vaporflys
You shouldnt want low stack height unless your form/foot/whatever needs it (minority of runners)
marshal wrote:
Exactly.
The entire idea of carbon plate acting like a spring is just the consequence of not understanding basic laws of physics i.e. energy cannot be created or destroyed it can only be transferred. Carbon plate cannot create more energy than you put in your step, it can only help you not to lose the energy you already exerted. When you run with each step you lose some energy when landing on toes and bending foot joints. Carbon plate allows you to conserve that energy and this makes you a little bit more efficient but at the same time it makes your other joints work more. The net result is a bit of energy saving but it's nothing revolutionary. Carbon plates have been around since at least early 90s and many track spikes and shoes have had them long before VF4% were invented.
Ha ha, superb!
Another wonderfully informed post here:- This is why if you jumped from 6 feet, say, onto a pile of cushions you would be bounced up to EXACTLY the same height as you would if you jumped from 6 feet onto a trampoline.
Foam = cushion.
Carbon Fiber plate = trampoline.
Vaporfly Asterisk wrote:
marshal wrote:
Exactly.
The entire idea of carbon plate acting like a spring is just the consequence of not understanding basic laws of physics i.e. energy cannot be created or destroyed it can only be transferred. Carbon plate cannot create more energy than you put in your step, it can only help you not to lose the energy you already exerted. When you run with each step you lose some energy when landing on toes and bending foot joints. Carbon plate allows you to conserve that energy and this makes you a little bit more efficient but at the same time it makes your other joints work more. The net result is a bit of energy saving but it's nothing revolutionary. Carbon plates have been around since at least early 90s and many track spikes and shoes have had them long before VF4% were invented.
Ha ha, superb!
Another wonderfully informed post here:- This is why if you jumped from 6 feet, say, onto a pile of cushions you would be bounced up to EXACTLY the same height as you would if you jumped from 6 feet onto a trampoline.
Foam = cushion.
Carbon Fiber plate = trampoline.
You're right. Foam is made out of rubber and we all know that nothing made out of rubber bounces.
errrrrr? Yeah, like I said jumping onto a trampoline is EXACTLY the same as jumping on to cushions.
All spring components have exactly the same properties!
Tee Eye Double-G Errrrrrr wrote:
Vaporfly Asterisk wrote:
Ha ha, superb!
Another wonderfully informed post here:- This is why if you jumped from 6 feet, say, onto a pile of cushions you would be bounced up to EXACTLY the same height as you would if you jumped from 6 feet onto a trampoline.
Foam = cushion.
Carbon Fiber plate = trampoline.
You're right. Foam is made out of rubber and we all know that nothing made out of rubber bounces.
The dude is the running equivalent of a flat-earther. There is no point in talking to him.
The Floyd wrote:
Both you and Tarckstar are off. Nike didn't "discover" the ZoomX foam, which is a blown PEBA (a kind of plastic). It apparently was developed by and licensed from Zotefoams, a UK company. This is a similar situation to Adidas and Saucony licensing their boost and everun foams from BASF, a German chemical company. So, in other words, Skechers is totally capable of obtaining a comparable or superior foam from a foam specialist and we've seen that Nike does not have a monopoly on light PEBA foams as Reebok is using a PEBA in the Floatride shoes. I have no idea of course whether Skechers' new racer will be great, but Skechers is putting out good products with its new Hyper foam so I'm definitely interested in checking it out.
And can people please stop spelling "Skechers" with a "t". It's not that hard!!
uninformed ppl wrote:
Everyone thinks the carbon plate is what gives VF4 it's big advantage, when in reality it's the ZoomX foam at such a nice stack height that gives you that bounce AND allows your legs to stay fresher over the entire marathon distance. A hard plate is nothing new in shoe technology and has been put in track spikes widely and some other shoes for years. Sketchers doesn't have the R&D to come up with a comparable foam, so their shoe won't be nearly as effective.
I should have stopped reading after this post.
Ha, true - I was going to reply pointing out that that's why you bounce into the air by merely stepping on to a rubber ball just like you do by stepping onto a cushion but I thought the subtle irony would fly straight over his head.
Some people just can't wrap their hands around the fact that a cushion in that analogy operates in exactly the same way as foam when comparing to the Vaporfly plate. Or at least they pretend to...
Lots of companies use PEBA foam. It's listed on a website somewhere. However they throw in other 'technology' that slows you down because they don't want to have it super soft like Nike.
Most of Mizuno shoes have PEBAX in it but clearly nobody is winning in Mizuno.
uninformed ppl wrote:
A hard plate is nothing new in shoe technology and has been put in track spikes widely and some other shoes for years. Sketchers doesn't have the R&D to come up with a comparable foam, so their shoe won't be nearly as effective.
Mizuno right now: have I been invisible for 20 years?!?
When I pray to the shoe gods, I make sure I spell Skechers correctly.
Shunpo wrote:
Sketchers proto coming very soon. Lower stack height, lower heel to toe drop, hyper foam, carbon plate.
Thank the Lord!
Miz Miz wrote:
uninformed ppl wrote:
A hard plate is nothing new in shoe technology and has been put in track spikes widely and some other shoes for years. Sketchers doesn't have the R&D to come up with a comparable foam, so their shoe won't be nearly as effective.
Mizuno right now: have I been invisible for 20 years?!?
Different use though right? My understanding was the wave plate runs from heel to midfoot for more stability than propeling.
One thing the plate does is distribute the load over a greater area of foam. This seems very good. It could give you a firm surface that is also very springy instead of the hard vs squishy tradeoff. This may be the main source of the trampoline effect that stores and returns lots more energy.
You are right of course, and that’s the principle behind every running shoe which is not just a single midsole.
In Mizuno, Peba is used to make the rigid plate. I think the midsole itself is normal EVA. In Nike, Peba is blown to make the midsole itself. Vastly different densities.
Going to go on a limb and say it will be 2-3 more years before any company comes up with anything near as special as the 4 % is. That shoe is the future of shoes and it’s not from the plate it is 100 relative to how soft the cushion is. If the plate did anything people would PR shorter distances in the shoe. I have went through numerous pairs of 4% as I’ve tested them even before release the shoe does nothing for anything shorter than a marathon and the only reason it works for a marathon is because the shoe is so soft it reduces muscle tear and breakdown. Any shoes emulating the 4% by making a hard shoe with a plate will fail so badly.
Skechers are for hanging out on the stairs with Rick Fox and nothing else.
