Anaerobic workouts

Most runners misuse the terms aerobic and anaerobic.

Alan

That’s why I’m looking for information.fir example, three workouts:

16x400’s at 3200 pace with one minute rest. 16x400 at 3200 with 2 minutes rest

12x400 at 5k pace, with 400 recovery at a fast jog( minute slower than 5k pace)

Which are anaerobic, if any?

erode aerobic? thats bs man

Anaerobic wrote:

I’ve read that a runner should hold off on doing aerobic work till close to their peak race, so they don’t erode their aerobic strength. What are workouts for a 5k/3200/1600 that would constitute an aerobic workout? I would also love to hear a detailed explanation, so I. An better understand.

There is no truth in this.My coaching shows the opposite that you can do anaerobic work all year. The same for the worlds best marathoner Kipchoge and the coach P. Sang. Also the great Eamonn Coghlan did 6 x 1200m at 3:03 and 20 x 400m at 59 sec in December - January when many other runners did just slow running. This with the myth you must do a so called build up is just that….a myth! ))

Anaerobic wrote:

I’ve read that a runner should hold off on doing aerobic work till close to their peak race, so they don’t erode their aerobic strength. What are workouts for a 5k/3200/1600 that would constitute an aerobic workout? I would also love to hear a detailed explanation, so I. An better understand.

What I think what you mean by aerobic workouts: Steady running, tempo runs, 2k-3k reps and long hill reps(about a 1k long slope). What you are thinking of as far as peaking workouts, yes. You want to hold those off till it matters. It takes many many years to fully develop your aerobic system, but only about 8 weeks to fully develop your anaerobic system. And once you peak, you can only hold that form for so long before your body starts to break down. Than that is when you rest for a few weeks. Than start your base phase, rinse and repeat.

Sorry, I meant hold off on doing anaerobic work till the last 6-8 weeks. If an athlete is doing tempos, thresholds and fartleks, when should they start to implement a larger amounts of anaerobic work and what are some examples of anaerobic workouts?

Anaerobic wrote:

That’s why I’m looking for information.fir example, three workouts:

16x400’s at 3200 pace with one minute rest. 16x400 at 3200 with 2 minutes rest

12x400 at 5k pace, with 400 recovery at a fast jog( minute slower than 5k pace)

Which are anaerobic, if any?

Joke's on you. All 3 of them are aerobic.

Anaerobic workouts are workouts that dig very deep in your reserves, build lots of lactate and break down your carbohydrates. Like all-out races, they cause significant damage and often cause you to vomit, lie on the track or slow down at later reps. Also, breathing changes to a different pattern (oxygen deprivation) and often you feel signs from your brain to slow down, like a hurting heart, feeling nauseous or dry heaving, muscle cramps, or seeing stars.

Classic examples are:

1) 10x400 at Mile RP with 1 min rest - very anaerobic, high lactate workout.

5x800/1000 at faster than 3k pace - e.g. for a 9 min 3k runner:

2) If he does them at 3:00-3:05/k pace, he is likely around his VO2MAX which is still mostly aerobic. His HR at the end of reps will be 180, or whatever his max is. If he does them in 2:45-2:55 (around mile-2k pace), his HR will still be 180 - his aerobic system is working exactly the same amount - but to be able to maintain the higher speed, he needs to dig deep in the anaerobic system, producing lots of lactate, tearing down muscles and emptying the carbohydrate stores.

3) 4x400 at 800m pace, long rest. Even long rests won't clear all the lactate from the long, hard reps at 800m pace.

Does fast mean anaerobic? No. Even a tempo run is often VERY anaerobic, because they are being done too fast. On the other hand, there are many workouts that are super fast, but not anaerobic at all - like 10x200 with full 200m jog rest at mile RP or 4x400 with full 400m jog at mile RP. Also striders, hill sprints with plenty of recovery are not very anaerobic, you clear the lactate in the full recoveries.

Is anaerobic good? Unless you are a 800m runner, that needs a good anaerobic capacity, those 3 workouts above are rather ineffective. They need very long recoveries, dig deep in the physical and mental reserves and erode aerobic abilities. Doing anaerobic workouts unless you are a very seasoned runner is a mistake in my opinion, whereas including high speed (in non-anaerobic workouts) is very important for any runner.

Thank you!! This information is very helpful.

This. Sort of. The problem is the terminology.

Anaerobic can mean many things.

If I run an all out sprint up to 200m I am surely anaerobic. Give yourself a full recovery, 200m walk. Then repeat for desired reps. That’s a phosphagen/fast glycolysis workout.

A 400m sprint is about 50/50 aerobic/anaerobic. The mile is about 80/20. So is running reps at mile pace really training the “anaerobic system”?

This is what happens when you let physiological terns dictate your training.

What’s your race? Determine your training based on that. How far do you have to race? How fast do you have to race. Run farther slower. Run shorter faster. Run at race pace. Run faster than race pace. Run slower than race pace.

Alan

Anaerobic wrote:

I’ve read that a runner should hold off on doing aerobic work till close to their peak race, so they don’t erode their aerobic strength. What are workouts for a 5k/3200/1600 that would constitute an aerobic workout? I would also love to hear a detailed explanation, so I. An better understand.

A 12 week plan, leading to a 3k or 5k (or even mile) around 16 flat / 9:15 / 4:40 could be:

12 weeks to race: 6x1000, 200m rest in 3:20 & 6x200 + 8k Tempo at MP & 6x30s hills

11 weeks to race: 6x1000, 200m rest in 3:20 & 5x300 + 9k Tempo at MP & 6x30s hills

10 weeks to race: 6x1000, 200m rest in 3:20 & 4x400 + 10k Tempo at MP & 6x30 hills

9 weeks to race: 6x1000, 200m rest in 3:20 & 6x200 + Tune-Up Race or TT

8 weeks to race: 6x1000, 200m rest in 3:20 & 6x200 + 4x2000 in 3:30 & 4x400 (Threshold)

7 weeks to race: 6x1000, 200m rest in 3:20 & 5x300 + 12x400 in 3:05, 1 min rest (VO2MAX)

6 weeks to race: 6x1000, 200m rest in 3:20 & 4x400 + 8x600 in 3:05, 1.5 min rest (VO2MAX)

5 weeks to race: 6x1000, 200m rest in 3:20 & 6x200 + Tune-Up Race or TT

4 weeks to race: 6x1000, 200m rest in 3:20 & 5x300 + 6x800 in 3:05, 2.5 min rest (VO2MAX)

3 weeks to race: 6x1000, 200m rest in 3:20 & 400m TT + 4x2000 in 3:30 & 4x400 ( Threshold)

2 weeks to race: 5x1000, 400m rest in 3:20 & 600m TT + 3x2000 in 3:30 & 4x400 (Threshold)

Race week: 4x1000, 400m rest in 3:20 & 800m TT + RACE

2 workouts a week. One weekly CV/Threshold workout with fast running at mile pace and full rest (equal distance jog to reps).

Then you start with easy tempo running to build aerobic abilities. Then you do some threshold to transition to VO2MAX work, which will gradually build and only 3 sessions in total. 1 month before peak race, VO2MAX work stops to do a slight taper. No mileage taper, just intensity!

In the last 2-3 weeks, training is lighter, but around same mileage, to keep aerobic abilities. In race week, cut the long run. That plan will maximize your aerobic abilities and have enough fast running for you to keep your anaerobic system sharp. Zero super hard anaerobic sessions needed, the only really hard things are the 3 races (TT should just be at 97-98% effort).

This is roughly what Tinman would prescribe Drew Hunter during his senior year in college (with much faster paces of course, but average letsrunner is a 16 flat guy and not a 14 min'ish).

Lot's of good info on here so far. For the OP, keep in mind that aerobic/anaerobic is much more of a continuum than an either/or. Even as you sit down and read this, most of the energy your body is using to function is derived aerobically (with oxygen present) while a very small percentage is being produced anaerobically (without oxygen present).

When runners or coaches reference "anaerobic" workouts, they are generally referring to workouts that will require a higher percentage of energy from anaerobic sources (primarily lactate) than during easy running or a tempo run - the aerobic system is still providing a significant percentage of the energy as well! The goal of these workouts is to increase your body's ability to generate energy without oxygen present and to better process the byproducts of your body using lactate for fuel (in place or energy derived aerobically), thereby allowing you to race faster.

As others have pointed out, you can develop your anaerobic capacity to about 95% of its maximum in about 6 weeks, and almost fully develop it in 8 weeks - but doing too much anaerobic work does at some point start to erode your aerobic capacity, so try not to go overboard.

once upon a time, it was discovered that it is possible to measure the amount of oxygen a person consumes while exercising. this was originally done as part of medical experiments to help sick people get better but an English scientist and amateur runner called Arthur Hill realised that it had implications for athletic performance. he carried out a series of experiments on himself and some of his colleagues and more or less invented the modern science of exercise physiology in the process.

his experiments led to a theory that up to some point a runner's speed increased as oxygen consumption increased, and that past that point, a speed I will call x, any increase in speed incurred an oxygen debt that was repaid when exercise ceased. this explained why athletes pant heavily when they stop running, they are inhaling oxygen they "owe" to repay the debt they have incurred whilst running faster than x. Hill believed that x was an absolute limit that applied to all humans. it never occurred to him that we might each have an individual level of x.

Hill's discoveries led to some terminology. aerobic exercise was performed with oxygen, up to the point x, and anaerobic exercise was performed without oxygen, by running faster than x. as well as incurring an oxygen debt, running anaerobically was thought to be the cause of lactic acid build up in the muscles, and "speed endurance" was thought to be essentially the ability to continue running with high levels of lactic acid in the system.

the point of anaerobic training was that you could train the body to endure a greater and greater oxygen debt, and higher levels of lactic acid, and therefore run faster, supposedly, without inhaling more oxygen.

this then led to the theory that humans had three separate energy pathways, which were described as different chemical processes that somehow kicked in as speed increased. at low speed you used one energy system, as speed increases another system kicks in and at very high speed another energy system kicked in. training was geared around the dual ideas of maximising the efficiency of these separate pathways while also enduring higher levels of oxygen debt and lactic acid.

some years past. then some bright spark realised that this was essentially nonsense. the human body cannot operate without oxygen and unless you are one of the Bajau people of Indonesia, who free dive and hold their breath for up to 13 minutes while fishing, you cannot run anaerobically, as it was previously defined. it was also determined that we produce lactic acid all the time, not just when running very fast, and that lactic acid build up is not necessarily a limiting factor to athletic performance. it was also finally realised that the three energy pathways run simultaneously and continuously overlap each other so that it is in fact impossible to train any single energy system on its own.

this led to lots of changes in the way that training is organised, but unfortunately we still use some of the old terminology. no one today talks about training energy systems, the term oxygen debt is no longer used but the terms aerobic and anaerobic persist even though their original distinction no longer applies.

in a more modern vocabulary, aerobic running is slow, and anything faster than around your 1 mile pace is referred to as anaerobic. and we use these terms because they are somewhat useful even though we simultaneously understand that they are gibberish and don't really mean what we pretend they do.

cheers.

Wow! great info! Love when Letsrun actually has helpful advice!

What would you consider "high speed in non anaerobic work"?

anaerobic wrote:

What would you consider "high speed in non anaerobic work"?

Plenty of options.

Start with striders. 10-20s quick running (not all-out!) with good turnover, slight forward lean and focus on maintaining perfect form. Then, jog/walk back for full recovery (HR 130-140).

Same with short hill sprints (8-12s), these can even be all-out or close to all-out. If all-out, make sure to wait 2-3 minutes before doing the next one.

Then you could progress to flat sprints - 60m's with long (3-5 min) recoveries.

Also economy reps, like 3x5x200, progressing down from mile pace to 800m pace with 200m jog recovery all time. Or if a bit longer, 3-5x400 at mile pace, 400m slow jog recovery.

In all of these sessions, you produce medium-high lactate, but the breaks are long enough to allow you to clear it. So you never accumulate huge amounts as you would during real anaerobic sessions. Real anaerobic (and a lot of hurting for you) would be to do those sessions with very short rest OR to run very fast, like close to all-out 400 or 600. You can tell if you are anaerobic by the crazy burning in your legs and a change in breathing.

“So you never accumulate huge amounts as you would during real anaerobic sessions”

Not all anaerobic work produces lactate. Lactate isn’t even your enemy.

60m sprints with long rest is the definition of anaerobic.

I understand the workout advice is sound but your understanding of the science is not.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

“So you never accumulate huge amounts as you would during real anaerobic sessions”

Not all anaerobic work produces lactate. Lactate isn’t even your enemy.

60m sprints with long rest is the definition of anaerobic.

I understand the workout advice is sound but your understanding of the science is not.

Alan

Lactate isn't your enemy - true, but it highly correlates with the build up of byproducts, like H+ ions that are causing fatigue and force us to slow down. Lactate itself is good, a fuel source but you generally want to avoid very high lactate values as endurance runner, unless you are focusing on 200-800m and building lactate tolerance.

I don't see 60m sprints as typical anaerobic workout. We have 3 ways to produce energy - creatine phosphate, anaerobic glycosis and aerobic. In the first 5-8s, the creatine phosphate system is used primarily. It is our strongest and fastest way to provide force and energy. That's why when you do repeats, the first few seconds feel extremely easy and often way too fast, because you are not using the aerobic (or even anaerobic) system yet and getting most of the energy from creatine phosphate.

200m and 400m VERY fast would be anaerobic, and would be very high lactate (with longer rests) or extreme lactate (with short rests).

Think about a mile race - you start the first 10s with the creatine phosphate system. Then, the anaerobic system takes up the majority of work. After 90s, the aerobic system (that works since the start, but takes a long time to work at full capacity) overtakes the majority and the anaerobic system tries to give whatever is left to keep the pace. The aerobic system can't keep the pace alone, so either the anaerobic system has enough energy to supply until the end of the race, or the runner will be forced to slow down (aerobic system can only handle VO2MAX pace, which is around 7-8 min race pace. Miles are typically faster).

A work-out like 10x10-20s "all-out", like done by footballers is like one of the worst ways to train speed or the anaerobic system. Yes, the first 1-2 reps will be anaerobic, but then they slow down and the latter reps are more aerobic (and at slower pace) because they are gassed. That would maybe train lactate tolerance, but not speed or the ability to run relaxed at high speeds.

Love reading all this great information. If 3200/1600 athletes are running legs of the 4x400 or 4x800, what impact can this have on their ability to run a strong 3200 race near the end of the season? Is it helpful or potentially hurtful?

Why there's no progression for the 6x1000s? No rep increase, no distance increase, no pace increase, no rest decrease?!