All American Casey Clinger steps away from college to serve as a missionary - His Story

nofacetimber wrote:

killermike wrote:

There is clearly some evil in this world that could have been removed without removing any good.

I'm intrigued, because it's not that clear to me, can you share some examples and or instances where you feel this is clearly the case?

killermike wrote:

I think there are nearly limitless examples of gratuitous suffering. For example, animals were on the scene for millions of years before humans, and in many cases they suffered greatly from starvation, predation, etc. God created a situation where creatures across the planet died painful deaths when he could have done otherwise. This was clearly not for mankind's benefit, or to pull man "closer to god" because we didn't even exist yet. In a nutshell, why aren't all animals vegan?

killermike wrote:

By his very nature, god is required to have created the best possible world.

blamb61 wrote:

killermike wrote:

A few thoughts:

1. The question of whether God is completely good because he is perfect at following an independent standard of morality versus him being completely good because whatever he does is automatically good is an age old question. It is also a theological question rather than a philosophical question. However, I think we have at least some reason to believe that God is perfect at following an independent standard of good. For example, why did he need to send his son Jesus to die on the cross to atone for our sins if he could've simply wiped our sins away however he wanted to?

2. Your position it seems is that everything God has done is good, which includes causing massive amounts of unnecessary pain and suffering. Again, we are talking about suffering in the animal kingdom long before the fall of man ever happened. So it can't be the case that free will explains this because humans did not even exist at the time. To honestly hold this position, you have to believe that causing massive suffering for no benefit is consistent with God's view of morality. If so, you should adopt that belief yourself. You can't say that God causing massive suffering for no good reason in the past was a good act but that causing pain and suffering for no good reason is presently a bad thing.

3. I think an analogy might help here. Imagine I said that there was a being that existed that was all powerful and all knowing and had the sole desire to make sure no trees ever existed on planet earth. You would likely respond by saying such a being cannot exist because there are trees on planet earth. That's how this argument works. If a three trait God exists, we should not see anything but the best possible world. However, it is easy to see how a better world could have existed. Unless you are really holding the idea that a world without the massive extra suffering that we have in this world would not be better than the world we have, which seems crazy to me, then we do not live in the best possible world.

1. Justice for broken laws had to be paid. Christ paid the demands of justice so mercy could be offered also. God has to be just or he would seek to be God. He is merciful also.

2. You don't know that suffering was for no good. Right now in the animal kingdom, having the strong survive keeps the species healthy.

3. Wrong, God created the world with opposition in it and free will. Both necessary for growth. The purpose of the earth is for mans progression. You have no progression without opposition. Try bench-pressing without any weights and see how strong that gets you!

Jayordon wrote:

Pros of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint's:

Drug/alcohol use is almost nonexistent in members

Whether or not God is real, the belief that He is real gives members hope and good feeling

Incredible contribution to humanity aid in terms of financing, goods, and service

Encourages kindness

Etc.

What is wrong with a religion that does so much good for the world? Knowing God has given me strength and hope in some of the hardest times of my life. Without the belief of God, I may not have made it through those times. I definitely would not be the person I am today without believing in God. Assuming that God is not real, the church still makes great contributions to the world. If the Red Cross worshipped a god that I did not believe in, I would not bash them. I would support them even if it's only for the good actions that they have performed. The good the church does definitely outweighs the bad. Casey Clinger is out there performing acts of service for goodness sake. And he's only one in many. People need to stop hating the church for illegitimate reasons. If you don't believe, that's fine. Nobody is going to force you to (No, missionaries do not force you to believe. They only teach to those who are willing to listen). But there shouldn't be this constant bashing. It's doing no good for anybody. I'm sick of seeing all these threads turn into heated discussions about how the church is a cult and fake for X and Y reasons. As I said, if you don't believe in it, that's fine. You don't have to. But don't bash on it.

Mountain Meadows Massacre wrote:

Jayordon wrote:

Pros of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint's:

Drug/alcohol use is almost nonexistent in members

Whether or not God is real, the belief that He is real gives members hope and good feeling

Incredible contribution to humanity aid in terms of financing, goods, and service

Encourages kindness

Etc.

What is wrong with a religion that does so much good for the world? Knowing God has given me strength and hope in some of the hardest times of my life. Without the belief of God, I may not have made it through those times. I definitely would not be the person I am today without believing in God. Assuming that God is not real, the church still makes great contributions to the world. If the Red Cross worshipped a god that I did not believe in, I would not bash them. I would support them even if it's only for the good actions that they have performed. The good the church does definitely outweighs the bad. Casey Clinger is out there performing acts of service for goodness sake. And he's only one in many. People need to stop hating the church for illegitimate reasons. If you don't believe, that's fine. Nobody is going to force you to (No, missionaries do not force you to believe. They only teach to those who are willing to listen). But there shouldn't be this constant bashing. It's doing no good for anybody. I'm sick of seeing all these threads turn into heated discussions about how the church is a cult and fake for X and Y reasons. As I said, if you don't believe in it, that's fine. You don't have to. But don't bash on it.

I couldn’t disagree with you more in your opinion that the good that the Mormon church outweighs the bad.

Here are some things that the Mormon church does that causes harm:

1) Harmful stances on regarding the LGBT community (electroshock aversion therapy at BYU, quotes from Mormon leaders saying things like if they had a gay child, they wouldn’t go out in public with them, or they wouldn’t allow them to bring their partner to stay overnight at their home, etc.)

2) History of racist doctrine (Blacks weren’t allowed to fully participate in the Mormon church until 1978, the Book of Mormon teaching dark skin is a curse for being wicked, Mormon leaders stating the more righteous a person is, the more white their skin will become, any quotes from Brigham Young on race, etc.)

3) Gender Inequality (women making a promise to God in the temple to obey their husbands, women can’t hold many leadership positions, and any positions that are held by women in the Mormon church are overseen by men)

4) Dishonesty about the Mormon Church’s history and excommunicating members of the Mormon Church who question leadership or publicly express doubt.

Explicit drugs and alcohol might be outlawed in the Mormon church, but Utah has among the highest rates of painkiller overdoses in the country, one of the highest rates of antidepressant users, the highest rate of mental illness in the country, 5th highest suicide rate in the country, and ranks last in studies regarding gender equality.

Members of the Mormon Church erroneously believe that their church gives a lot of its revenue to humanitarian aid. A 2016 Deseret News article stated that the Mormon Church averages $40 million a year in humanitarian efforts. While this number might sound huge on the surface, that works out to be about $2.67 per every member. That number is pitiful for a church that requires every member to pay 10% of their income to the church. Mormon researchers estimate that the church brings in over $5 billion annually. That would mean that the Mormon Church gives 0.8% of its revenue to humanitarian efforts. That number is abysmal for a church that pays no taxes. Hell, JJ Watt raised over $40 million for hurricane Harvey relief. He’s doing more humanitarian effort than the multibillion dollar LDS Corporation.

I could continue on for a long time, but my post is already too long. If Mormons on this message board want to complain about receiving criticism, then stop trying to force your religion onto others who don’t want it. I left the Mormon Church a few years ago. I still live in Utah, and am constantly having to tell Mormons that I’m not interested in coming back to their church.

If you want to know more about the truth of your Mormon religion, you should visit this website:

cesletter.org

Jayordon wrote:

Mountain Meadows Massacre wrote:

I couldn’t disagree with you more in your opinion that the good that the Mormon church outweighs the bad.

Here are some things that the Mormon church does that causes harm:

1) Harmful stances on regarding the LGBT community (electroshock aversion therapy at BYU, quotes from Mormon leaders saying things like if they had a gay child, they wouldn’t go out in public with them, or they wouldn’t allow them to bring their partner to stay overnight at their home, etc.)

2) History of racist doctrine (Blacks weren’t allowed to fully participate in the Mormon church until 1978, the Book of Mormon teaching dark skin is a curse for being wicked, Mormon leaders stating the more righteous a person is, the more white their skin will become, any quotes from Brigham Young on race, etc.)

3) Gender Inequality (women making a promise to God in the temple to obey their husbands, women can’t hold many leadership positions, and any positions that are held by women in the Mormon church are overseen by men)

4) Dishonesty about the Mormon Church’s history and excommunicating members of the Mormon Church who question leadership or publicly express doubt.

Explicit drugs and alcohol might be outlawed in the Mormon church, but Utah has among the highest rates of painkiller overdoses in the country, one of the highest rates of antidepressant users, the highest rate of mental illness in the country, 5th highest suicide rate in the country, and ranks last in studies regarding gender equality.

Members of the Mormon Church erroneously believe that their church gives a lot of its revenue to humanitarian aid. A 2016 Deseret News article stated that the Mormon Church averages $40 million a year in humanitarian efforts. While this number might sound huge on the surface, that works out to be about $2.67 per every member. That number is pitiful for a church that requires every member to pay 10% of their income to the church. Mormon researchers estimate that the church brings in over $5 billion annually. That would mean that the Mormon Church gives 0.8% of its revenue to humanitarian efforts. That number is abysmal for a church that pays no taxes. Hell, JJ Watt raised over $40 million for hurricane Harvey relief. He’s doing more humanitarian effort than the multibillion dollar LDS Corporation.

I could continue on for a long time, but my post is already too long. If Mormons on this message board want to complain about receiving criticism, then stop trying to force your religion onto others who don’t want it. I left the Mormon Church a few years ago. I still live in Utah, and am constantly having to tell Mormons that I’m not interested in coming back to their church.

If you want to know more about the truth of your Mormon religion, you should visit this website:

cesletter.org

You can't look at the past with today's standards. Everybody was racist 100 years ago (when blacks were not allowed the priesthood). Is the church currently racist by today's standards? The answer is no. Women can hold plenty of leadership positions and are fine with the positions that they can and can't hold. Women also have "advantages" over men in the church. Nobody can force their views onto you. Just because somebody talks about it and invites you to go to church, that does not mean they are forcing their views on you. Nobody is holding you at gunpoint making you think a certain way. The church contributes more to humanitarian aid than almost anyone else and definitely more than you ever will. There are a lot of expenses to be paid than you would realize and the .8% that they contribute towards humanitarian aid is actually a lot higher when you consider the ways they spend money that indirectly contribute to humanitarian aid. I hold my stance that it gives more good than bad.

Mountain Meadows Massacre wrote:

Jayordon wrote:

You can't look at the past with today's standards. Everybody was racist 100 years ago (when blacks were not allowed the priesthood). Is the church currently racist by today's standards? The answer is no. Women can hold plenty of leadership positions and are fine with the positions that they can and can't hold. Women also have "advantages" over men in the church. Nobody can force their views onto you. Just because somebody talks about it and invites you to go to church, that does not mean they are forcing their views on you. Nobody is holding you at gunpoint making you think a certain way. The church contributes more to humanitarian aid than almost anyone else and definitely more than you ever will. There are a lot of expenses to be paid than you would realize and the .8% that they contribute towards humanitarian aid is actually a lot higher when you consider the ways they spend money that indirectly contribute to humanitarian aid. I hold my stance that it gives more good than bad.

Your response is a classic example of how a lifetime of indoctrination kills the ability to think critically.

"You can't look at the past with today's standards. Everybody was racist 100 years ago"

1978 wasn't 100 years ago. Slavery and racism are immoral and the Mormon Church should apologize for their racism. Not everyone was racist even when slavery was legal. What is the point of having a prophet that receives guidance from God? Isn't a prophet supposed to be prophetic and transcendent? Doesn't the Mormon Church teach that it doesn't follow the "ways of the world?" When the Mormon prophet received revelation that blacks can't hold the preisthood, were the prophets mistaken, or is God racist?

" Is the church currently racist by today's standards? "

Yes, the Mormon church has canonized racism. The Book of Mormon teaches white skin is "pure and delightsome" and dark skin is a curse.

"Women can hold plenty of leadership positions and are fine with the positions that they can and can't hold"

Women don't hold any positions that aren't overseen and selected by men. How do you know they are fine with the positions that they are allowed to hold? They promise in the temple not to speak ill of their male leaders, and to obey their husbands. Women have no voice in the Mormon church. Google Kate Kelly. She was excommunicated for advocating for equal right of women in the Mormon religion.

"Women also have "advantages" over men in the church"

Care to give any examples?

"Nobody can force their views onto you"

I live in Utah. The Mormon Church controls the state legislators. Over the last couple of years the Mormon Church has killed bills that would have made stronger laws for hate crimes, and criminalized conversion therapy. The Mormon Church tried to kill the bill that would have legalized medical cannabis. The public opposed the Church's stance, so state legislators passed a watered down version of the bill at the request of Mormon lobbyists. So yeah, the Mormon Church does force their view onto me.

"The church contributes more to humanitarian aid than almost anyone else and definitely more than you ever will."

I contribute a lot more than 0.8% of my revenue to charitable causes. I would certainly contribute more that $40 million a year if I brought in over $5 billion. However, my ability to give to charities is irrelevant to the argument. The Mormon Church could do far more good in the world than they do. If Jesus were leading the Mormon Church, do you think he would tell leaders to spend $5 billion to purchase a mall (City Creek Mall)? Would he instruct leaders to put rugs in temples that cost over $20,000?

"There are a lot of expenses to be paid than you would realize and the .8% that they contribute towards humanitarian aid is actually a lot higher when you consider the ways they spend money that indirectly contribute to humanitarian aid.

"

The Mormon Church owns over $32 billion in stock (they shelter it in umbrella companies that are just a front). They earn over a billion dollars in just investment income a year. Don't bullshit me about them having too many expenses to give more than a pitiful 0.8% of their revenue to humanitarian aid. They bought a $5 billion shopping mall! If the Mormon Church didn't keep their financial information as secretive as they do, we would have a clearer picture of how little they actually do compared to what they are capable of doing.

"I hold my stance that it gives more good than bad"

I hold my stance that the Mormon Church does little good in the world, and has blood on its hands for the suicides that have occurred as a result of their ostracizing the marginalized.