All American Casey Clinger steps away from college to serve as a missionary - His Story

well actually wrote

Let's get one thing straight, God himself cannot violate the standard because he is the standard. If God decides to punish then it is just because he is God. If God decides to bless then it is just because he is God. You keep saying he violates his own standard when that is not possible because he is the standard. He can do what he wants because he is God.

He created the world where free will exists and where others have the option to violate the standard he has set for them. A lot of times this violation of the standard leads to pain and suffering for others.

As I said I am busy and don't have time for a long argument, this will be my last post.

A few thoughts:

1. The question of whether God is completely good because he is perfect at following an independent standard of morality versus him being completely good because whatever he does is automatically good is an age old question. It is also a theological question rather than a philosophical question. However, I think we have at least some reason to believe that God is perfect at following an independent standard of good. For example, why did he need to send his son Jesus to die on the cross to atone for our sins if he could've simply wiped our sins away however he wanted to?

2. Your position it seems is that everything God has done is good, which includes causing massive amounts of unnecessary pain and suffering. Again, we are talking about suffering in the animal kingdom long before the fall of man ever happened. So it can't be the case that free will explains this because humans did not even exist at the time. To honestly hold this position, you have to believe that causing massive suffering for no benefit is consistent with God's view of morality. If so, you should adopt that belief yourself. You can't say that God causing massive suffering for no good reason in the past was a good act but that causing pain and suffering for no good reason is presently a bad thing.

3. I think an analogy might help here. Imagine I said that there was a being that existed that was all powerful and all knowing and had the sole desire to make sure no trees ever existed on planet earth. You would likely respond by saying such a being cannot exist because there are trees on planet earth. That's how this argument works. If a three trait God exists, we should not see anything but the best possible world. However, it is easy to see how a better world could have existed. Unless you are really holding the idea that a world without the massive extra suffering that we have in this world would not be better than the world we have, which seems crazy to me, then we do not live in the best possible world.

About the only thing beneficial to going around the world trying to convert people to believe in nonsense on steroids (meaning Mormonism) is that BYU has outstanding immersion language programs.

Understand that divine command theory destroys morality by making it entirely arbitrary and potentially contradictory.

Majority Mob wrote:

Do morals come from the majority then? If the majority of the population thinks it is okay to steal from you, then how is it wrong? You don't like it but it must be right if man determines what is moral.

Well that’s a very simplistic way of putting it but sure, it’s largely decided by the prevailing thoughts of the society/culture.

Honestly? wrote:

Killer Mike never ceases to amaze. I pray for you to come to know Jesus Christ.

Except that no one is going to come to know Jesus Christ through Mormonism. Mormon’s are NOT Christians, in fact, their beliefs are in direct contradiction t Christian beliefs and the Bible. However, they are good at selling their false religion.

Trackgrandpa wrote:

In connection with Casey Clinger's possible running career after his mission consider the following list of US olympians who served LDS missions (Olympic years, event and region of service indicated):

Henry Marsh (1976, 1984, 1988), steeplechase. Brazil.

Doug Padilla (1984, 1988), middle distance. El Salvador.

Ed Eyestone (1988, 1992), marathon. Spain.

Jason Pyrah (1996, 2000), 1500. Bolivia

Grant Robison (2004), 1500. South Africa.

Josh McAdams (2008), steeplechase, Thailand.

Jared Ward (2016), marathon, Pennsylvania.

There has been at least one returned LDS missionary on every US mens mid-d/d Olympic team since 1976 except in 2012. (In 2012 Miles Batty(1500) and Josh McAdams (st) both made the finals in their events at the Olympic Trials but did not make the team.) This is a history that certainly supports at least the possibility of a distinguished post-mission running career.

My theory on this is because they don't partake in alcohol or other drugs. Does a body good.

sub sub elite local hobby jogger wrote:

Trackgrandpa wrote:

In connection with Casey Clinger's possible running career after his mission consider the following list of US olympians who served LDS missions (Olympic years, event and region of service indicated):

Henry Marsh (1976, 1984, 1988), steeplechase. Brazil.

Doug Padilla (1984, 1988), middle distance. El Salvador.

Ed Eyestone (1988, 1992), marathon. Spain.

Jason Pyrah (1996, 2000), 1500. Bolivia

Grant Robison (2004), 1500. South Africa.

Josh McAdams (2008), steeplechase, Thailand.

Jared Ward (2016), marathon, Pennsylvania.

There has been at least one returned LDS missionary on every US mens mid-d/d Olympic team since 1976 except in 2012. (In 2012 Miles Batty(1500) and Josh McAdams (st) both made the finals in their events at the Olympic Trials but did not make the team.) This is a history that certainly supports at least the possibility of a distinguished post-mission running career.

My theory on this is because they don't partake in alcohol or other drugs. Does a body good.

There were even more olympians during the periods listed that did not go on Mormon missions.

Mission or not, talent does not go away, talent trumps all.

Pros of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint's:

Drug/alcohol use is almost nonexistent in members

Whether or not God is real, the belief that He is real gives members hope and good feeling

Incredible contribution to humanity aid in terms of financing, goods, and service

Encourages kindness

Etc.

What is wrong with a religion that does so much good for the world? Knowing God has given me strength and hope in some of the hardest times of my life. Without the belief of God, I may not have made it through those times. I definitely would not be the person I am today without believing in God. Assuming that God is not real, the church still makes great contributions to the world. If the Red Cross worshipped a god that I did not believe in, I would not bash them. I would support them even if it's only for the good actions that they have performed. The good the church does definitely outweighs the bad. Casey Clinger is out there performing acts of service for goodness sake. And he's only one in many. People need to stop hating the church for illegitimate reasons. If you don't believe, that's fine. Nobody is going to force you to (No, missionaries do not force you to believe. They only teach to those who are willing to listen). But there shouldn't be this constant bashing. It's doing no good for anybody. I'm sick of seeing all these threads turn into heated discussions about how the church is a cult and fake for X and Y reasons. As I said, if you don't believe in it, that's fine. You don't have to. But don't bash on it.

Religious and no religious people try to “force heir views” on the world, but that is what democracy is. Everyone forcing their views on everyone else through the ballot box, in a manner of speaking.

Mikeh33 wrote:

Religious and no religious people try to “force heir views” on the world, but that is what democracy is. Everyone forcing their views on everyone else through the ballot box, in a manner of speaking.

Your use of "quotation marks for "force" is very accurate. I've always wondered how in the world it was possible to force someone to believe something. Seriously, how is that possible? Would that involve kidnapping someone and performing some sort of elaborate brain surgery so that they wake up believing something different than they did before? Me advocating for something strongly is not me forcing someone to believe something, as though that were even possible.

Real talk wrote:

Trackgrandpa wrote:

In connection with Casey Clinger's possible running career after his mission consider the following list of US olympians who served LDS missions (Olympic years, event and region of service indicated):

Henry Marsh (1976, 1984, 1988), steeplechase. Brazil.

Doug Padilla (1984, 1988), middle distance. El Salvador.

Ed Eyestone (1988, 1992), marathon. Spain.

Jason Pyrah (1996, 2000), 1500. Bolivia

Grant Robison (2004), 1500. South Africa.

Josh McAdams (2008), steeplechase, Thailand.

Jared Ward (2016), marathon, Pennsylvania.

There has been at least one returned LDS missionary on every US mens mid-d/d Olympic team since 1976 except in 2012. (In 2012 Miles Batty(1500) and Josh McAdams (st) both made the finals in their events at the Olympic Trials but did not make the team.) This is a history that certainly supports at least the possibility of a distinguished post-mission running career.

Don’t forget miles batty came back after being pretty much an unknown, to dominating the 1500 and breaking the collegiate record in the mile.

Just pointing out that since he took a redshirt year after his mission trip he was effectively a 7th year senior when he set the collegiate record. It’s still a major accomplishment but I can’t help thinking about age in these situations.

killermike wrote:

Religion is nonsense, and I have a hard time saying kudos to a person who is doing other-wise good while trying to convince the world that a false god exists.

I can say kudos for his virtue, and he does sound virtuous. But he is sorely misguided.

You cannot prove God does not exist! Religion is an anchor to many to better themselves and do good. Your comment I think is what is nonsense.

Here is what the church is doing:

What you described isn't politics, it's morals. The church is non-partisan in politics but takes a strong on moral issues. Warning people of negative consequences isn't a negative thing.

killermike wrote:

Honestly? wrote:

Killer Mike never ceases to amaze. I pray for you to come to know Jesus Christ.

I was a Christian for 15 years. I almost went to seminary. I wasn't a nominal Christian. However, the arguments against a personal god are overwhelming.

Many have had numerous personal experiences that promote faith.

Precious Roy wrote:

All Mormons have to go on a 2 year mission. If you every fly through Salt Lake, you will see dozens of college age kids having tearful goodbyes with family as they are sent off to far flung destinations for their mission.

And getting to do your mission in Sapporo, Japan is like getting to do missionary work in Denver, CO but with even better powder skiing.

A lot of Mormon missionaries are sent far and wide to very remote places with inadequate health care and food and are often in danger. I am not sure why anyone would be making a big story about a very soft missionary experience.

Not all have to go, but many do. Missionaries work hard! Japanese is not easy! I served in Taiwan, also not easy.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does not believe that God created thing ex-nihilo or out of nothing, including our spirits. He placed us in a sphere where we could progress. See https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/2006/03/the-fulness-of-the-gospel-agency?lang=eng

killermike wrote:

Sorry, I wish I could edit posts to offer further clarification. The argument here is not that God is violating some objective standard of right and wrong. The argument is that he's violating his own standard, and his existence is incompatible with his supposed creation… Ergo, he does not exist.

God gave us agency, some choose to do evil with it and can cause others suffering. Agency is essential for growth. You have to choose and struggle to grow. Refiners fire you could call it. If you think there is no after-life, then I could see your point. If there is an after-life, then struggle and pain can have a purpose.

1. Justice for broken laws had to be paid. Christ paid the demands of justice so mercy could be offered also. God has to be just or he would seek to be God. He is merciful also.

2. You don't know that suffering was for no good. Right now in the animal kingdom, having the strong survive keeps the species healthy.

3. Wrong, God created the world with opposition in it and free will. Both necessary for growth. The purpose of the earth is for mans progression. You have no progression without opposition. Try bench-pressing without any weights and see how strong that gets you!

Good running genes, good looking guy, AND he gets a free trip to Japan!!!

Some people just win the lottery